In this episode, we pick up where we left off last week and jump right into a discussion about the force that is Dennis Rodman. We hear from Chad Brown again and get his perspective about Rodman’s mind on the court. Fred Hammond is back in this episode as well, providing his two cents on how Phil Jackson was able to relate to his players, the Pistons’ bad boys, and Magic Johnson.
And you can’t forget about the Nike deal. We chat about that, too, of course.
Enjoy episode #68, and find other episodes of Hustle & Pro.
Show Notes
- [00:30] Episode 3 – Rodman
- [02:57] Sacrifice and letting off steam
- [07:00] Episode 4 – Magic and Phil
- [08:00] Phil Jackson’s connection to players
- [10:02] The Pistons Effect
- [15:50] More Magic
- [17:40] Episode 5
- [19:15] Missing Kobe
- [21:20] Gotta be the shoes
- [27:30] Olympics and The Shrug
Resources within this episode:
- The Last Dance on ESPN
- Chad Brown: Bio | Instagram | Twitter
- Texas Legends: Website | Texas Legends on Lifestyle Frisco
- Fred Hammond | Countdown 2 Escape | Linked In | Facebook | Instagram
- Kelly Walker: Instagram @kelly_walkertexas | Twitter: @kelly_walker_TX
Connect with Lifestyle Frisco:
Transcript: (machine-generated)
Welcome to Hustle and Pro season two, talking sports and Frisco from youth to pro. Now here’s your host Kelly Walker.
Kelly Walker:
Welcome back to hustle and pro. So we are picking up our conversation again, talking about The Last Dance ESPN, um, docu series on Chicago bulls. So we finished episode one and two last episode, and we’re going to go ahead and jump in talking episode three, we are still talking with Chad Brown of the Texas legends and Fred Hammond who’s here in Frisco, and owns a local business countdown 2 escape here down on main street. So we’re going to jump into episode three, which is, I kind of have noted as the Rodman episode. Right. So, um, which is kind of a loaded episode, I guess you could say. So we see his, um, sort of his background, like his tough life on the streets and, um, how he was able to kind of stay out of trouble. Even you talked about like he was hanging out with drug dealers and this and that. Um, but it also explained how he said he, he kinda craved the pain and wanted to like, feel that on the court. Um, I guess, which is sort of why he is known for his physicality. Um, Chad, I’m curious from your perspective, because you are a presence on the court. I mean, your nickname is The Beast, right? So as that person who’s like known for blocking shots and being physical, um, you know, how do you do, how did what’d you think when you were watching that part on the Rodman episode?
Chad Brown:
Um, well, honestly I think that was like one of my favorite parts of the documentary is that Dennis Rodman, cause you know, everybody knows Jordan, everybody knows Pippin. Um, but you know, a lot of, a lot of like the underdog guys, like the Rodman’s and the Ben Wallace’s of the basketball world doesn’t really get the full recognition. So it was good to kind of see, you know, his background, you know, how he, you know, how his mindset changed in the basketball world to, you know, do what he does on the court. And, you know, everybody has a different personality and everything, but one thing you can say about him is that, you know, when he stepped on the court, you know, he left it all out there, you know, he left it all on the table and you know, he was, uh, he was the heart and soul of those guys team, man.
Kelly Walker:
It kind of makes you wonder though, does it, do you have to have a little bit of crazy in you though to like sacrifice your, your body like that? Right.
Chad Brown:
Yeah. I mean, uh, I can say from experience, you know, you just have to, like I said, I think it’s just a mindset, honestly. It’s a mindset you have to have where, you know, you know, you don’t mind, you know, you know, getting a couple of bruises, a couple scars and things like that. Cause you know, it’s all about winning and that’s who you are as a person. And you know, I like to say you have to be a little crazy to have a little mindset of, of doing those little dirty works. So
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. So, and then they, they showed us a lot about how he did his time off. Right. To relax. Um, then so, you know, it didn’t really make it look like his teammates were that bothered by it even I think Michael was like kind of understood. I think he had to go fetch him one time to get him back. Right. He didn’t come back behind his curfew or something. Um, can you, you know, I think we talked about this a little bit last time, but I can’t imagine that today he would just get roasted by the social media, if you’re just kind of Mia and you have to take a break in mid season, like we roast athletes off season nowadays. Right. Um, so if y’all have any thoughts.
Fred Hammond:
Yeah. I think that, I think that the genius of Phil Jackson was that he knew Dennis Rodman had to be on the team to win and he would almost let him do and be as crazy as he needed to be to let the formula play out. And I think that’s really a credit to Phil Jackson. Now, the fact that he let him go past the curfew and passed the vacation agreement and sent Jordan out there to get him is also genius because, you know, he’s like sending the leader back out to get them, brings them home. Doesn’t punish them, you know, they all get into practice again and they’re going to work out even harder. And Dennis goes just as hard as he would if he wasn’t on vacation, which is just so anti team. And so anti-establishment, that’s what Phil Jackson did is he allowed them to be themselves and, and, and kept him together and in a, won a championship.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. Hold that thought on Phil. Cause I want to talk about that in a second on then on the next piece, before we move off to the next episode though, um, and this episode, they started showing us, um, what I thought was cool. One of my favorite things about this whole series, um, we got to see that shot in 89, the kind of the famous shot and, how they, how they built up leading up to like the ends of these games. And I think this one kind of documented the final push in Jordan having to take over, which we saw on repeat a lot of the times, but, that’s the stuff like, I don’t remember the details. Maybe y’all do, uh, we’ll you don’t Chad and you were, I don’t even know if you were born yet.
Chad Brown:
I wasn’t around that time.
Kelly Walker:
You don’t remember the details. So this might’ve been even cooler for you and Fred, you might remember, but I mean, I remember Jordan as a whole and I remember my memories are like dunk contests and kind of more unique things. I couldn’t tell you, you know what Tom was left on the clock when he was making this show that shot in a certain game. So that was cool for me to be able to go back and let them build up the last five, seven minutes or something of a game and watch those possessions and watch really like document how he had to take takeover.
Fred Hammond:
It was the most kind of built like that, like that just play to this point and get to five minutes and Michael’s going to do his thing. He’s going to go to the free throw line, he’s going to shoot a jump shot. He’s going to do whatever it takes to win. And it was just played out at Lifeway almost all the time.
Kelly Walker:
So Chad, was that your first time seeing some of those kind of packaged up like three minutes of, of these playoff pushes or had you already known some of that?
Chad Brown:
So I I’ve already like done a lot of research about the bulls back in the 1990s. Um, cause I I’m actually a really used Dennis Rodman fan. I watched a lot of film on him and so I watched a lot of those games already. So it just, it kind of, I feel like these episodes kind of made me look at it as, you know, how it all came together. You know, I was more watching film on it, but I didn’t see the locker room parts the media parts. I didn’t see all of that, you know,
Kelly Walker:
The story behind the X’s and O’s
Chad Brown:
Right, exactly. Correct. So, um, like I said, I watched it and watched a lot of film on those guys, but you know, it’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s a lot better when you can, you know, look at it like really detailed, you know, off the court as well.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. I love that part. Okay. So Fred, you brought up the Phil Jackson thing. So let’s kinda slide into, Last Dance episode four, which is really Phil and it talks about magic too, but, um, so you talked about bill and how he sort of like connected and identified with. So part of that is I think, um, he said that he felt connected to people like Rodman because he was a physical defender too. And then I don’t know about you guys, but I didn’t know all the background about Phil Jackson with his native American history and like how he used that to kind of like that’s sort of his philosophy and how he used that to motivate as a coach. Um, so I don’t know, talk about that. Like, I don’t know if you guys already knew that or not, but how much that played into how he connected with people and how he let people have a, you know, a bit of a long leash sometimes to let them be them.
Fred Hammond:
Yeah. I mean, there’s several references to Phil, letting people do things that are contrary to a team when Scotty wouldn’t come in the game for the final shot and Kukoc hit’s it, he lets that go and keeps him on the team. He lets Dennis be Dennis and wear different color hair and earrings and go out to Vegas with Carmen Electra. And I don’t know how the native American thing all tied in, but it was sort of like this inner peace that he had and you could relate to each person exactly the way they needed to and keep it together as a team, which I think is really just genius. And it really probably doesn’t work without that. And Michael loved him too.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. I mean, Chad, do you feel that with all the coaches you’ve had, like, is it, is it critical that a coach has to have that flexibility and like be able to kind of just be open minded about every individual player’s needs and personality?
Chad Brown:
Well, absolutely. I definitely feel like, you know, like you all said, you know, I feel like personalities, everybody has different personalities, you know, and as a coach, you know, I never been a coach or anything like that, but just being around, you know, great coaches and things, I know that the coaches that I’ve had in the past have all been to connect with their players and we all have different personality. And you know, each player has different personality. You have the Dennis Rodman personality, you have the Jordan personality, you know, you have the Pippen personality, you know, you have, you have different personalities. So, you know, as a coach, you know, I feel like Phil Jackson did a great job to work with all of his guys. You know, he worked with all of his guys. He, he understood where they come from. He understood, you know, what they needed, you know, just how to, how to relate with those guys, you know? And he did a really good job being able to do that and to be a successful team, you know, your coach has to have that personal relationship with each player. So I feel like he did a great job with them.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. I can’t wait for a 30 for 30 on Phil Jackson one day. You know, it has to be out. It’ll have to be a little while later, I guess, but that, I think that’ll be fascinating just cause like inside the mind of how he saw people, I don’t know. Maybe I was judging him prior to kind of knowing more about him, but I just didn’t realize that was his, his angle. Um, it’s fascinating. All right. So let’s talk about this. Do you guys think the Pistons started a trend, um, for bigger NBA guys?
Fred Hammond:
I think they started a trend for a style of basketball and the style was brutality and physical and that did require bigger people like Lampier and all the people that they have that could literally hurt you and scare you and change the style of basketball that you’re accustomed to playing because of their physicality. So I think it was a style that was supported by physical athletes that maybe weren’t the best basketball players, but they were intimidators and scary. And that changed people’s mind when they’re going down the lane and getting ready to, you know, do something they normally do. They changed their game and, and gotten the head of the other team.
Chad Brown:
Right, right. No, I totally agree. I’ve definitely believe that the pistons, um, definitely changed the mindset of a lot of guys, um, in the basketball world, you know, even Jordan, you know, get beat up by the pistons each year and him making a conscious effort to be in a weight room saying, man, I got to get stronger. You know, these guys are bullying me, man. And I, and I can’t take you, you don’t my body physically can’t take it unless I get bigger.
Kelly Walker:
It singlehandedly affected him personally made him change his physicality. Like he had to change his body.
Chad Brown:
Yeah. You have to. I mean, it’s just, you know, they had the, they had the Jordan rules against him, you know? Yeah. No dunks, you know, everything was going to be earned from him. And, and he, you know, he took offense. He took offense to that. You know, he was like, man, I got to get stronger. So I feel like, you know, the pistons, they definitely changed a lot of basketball players, mentality and perspective of the game that, you know, it’s a physical game, you know, even to this day, you know, it’s not as bad as it was, you know, back in the eighties and nineties, but I can definitely say that, you know, we still have those guys that are the bruisers and that, you know, that you, you have to, you know, when you play against them is that, Hey man, it’s going to be a war, you know? So they definitely changed a lot of basketball players perspective.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. I think now it’s almost kind of gone the other end of the spectrum where it’s more about the fouls, the calls, I don’t know, protecting the players a little bit more. It’s good for guys like you that are out there playing, um, you know, here in the, in the land of Dirk, there’s a lot, there’s been a lot of talk about that. Like protecting these guys. And I do, I like that. I think it was, I think it was Jordan who said that, um, talked about like, not whining about getting beat up out there or did you just, you just didn’t complain about it and you just figure out your way around it, I guess, which I don’t as a fan, I can’t stand the over complainer. The guy for the call every time down the court or no, we’re soccer people, Fred, like I can’t stand when, after you’ve come into a confrontation with somebody else, your first reaction is to look at the ref and ask for a call. Like that’s not what you’re out there for. So I liked, I liked that they brought that up and that Jordan had to even say like, you can complain about the call, like play, play beyond that, figure it out. Right.
Fred Hammond:
And getting your head, like, if you wanted to fight them, that’s exactly what they wanted you to do. But when Scotty took that hard hit and he got up walked away and I think one of them, like maybe it was Isaiah or somebody said, I knew they had us when he didn’t react and it was over. And it was like, that was the sort of the tipping point from the bad boys to the new guys. And that was fascinating to me.
Kelly Walker:
It shows a lot of restraint to not react. That’s probably harder than somebody like me makes it sound. Do you have a conscious effort, like when you’re out there to have to hold back and not, cause you don’t seem on the court, Chad, like you’re always, you know, complaining about calls, you stay pretty level headed. Do you, is that something you have to work at or does it just,
Chad Brown:
Yeah, yeah. I think it’s a little bit of both. Um, I think it comes naturally for me cause I’m naturally a, uh, a physical player. So I feel like it comes natural for me that I don’t really have to argue about calls that at the same time you got to work on it because you know, players, don’t try to get into your head. You know, the, the, the excitement, the emotions, all in the air, you know, I feel like you just have to stay level, you know, cause guys gonna try to get out of your skin, you know, that’s, that’s what they do, you know, as basketball players, you know, I try to get under guys’ skin, you know, stuff like that. So that’s what we do, you know, and it’s just, it’s the nature of the sport. So you just have to, you know, be, um, be level headed and then just stay focused on the task at hand.
Kelly Walker:
How often are you fouling out of games, Chad?
Chad Brown:
Honestly, this season, I want to say I’ve only found out twice. Yeah. I actually did a really good job. I I’ve learned how to, I’ve learned when to foul and when not if that makes sense, because you have to, as, as a player, you have to know your value on the court. And so I can’t, you know, especially, you know, when, when our guys sometimes get called up and stuff, you know, I have a bigger role and I have to play a lot more. So, you know, I, uh, you know, have to learn how to, you know, know, my value on the core. So I can’t, I can’t be out there just fouling, you know, sometimes I gotta let things go. Sometimes they make it over me. They make it over me. But you know, I like, like I said, I, you to have to know your value on a court.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. And being valuable. I mean, if you have to have those files, that’s one thing, but you’re not very valuable sitting on the bench, not able to play in the fourth quarter when your team actually needs you out there. Right.
Chad Brown:
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
Kelly Walker:
So we also, in this episode, we also saw some Lakers finals with magic. My, I guess overall question is if you guys agree that we didn’t get enough, we didn’t see enough of magic in this docu series.
Chad Brown:
Oh yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah.
Fred Hammond:
Yeah. I’d love to have seen a lot more of it. I mean, that was kind of the Jordan replaced magic. He replaced Bird. I’d love to see that sort of build up and set up, but I felt the same way. Like it wasn’t enough.
Kelly Walker:
I mean, I guess it’s cause this was about the bulls in Jordan, but I dunno, I just kind of wanted to see a little more, more backstory. I mean, I guess it’s maybe in their 10 hours of cutting and editing, they couldn’t get more magic. And so
Chad Brown:
Yeah. I mean, it was probably hard, I mean, but I agree with you. I wish I was seeing a little bit more magic cause you know, it’s like Jordan, you know, looked up to him, you know, looked up to him, looked up to bird and you know, you, you want to hear their backgrounds a little bit too. Like, you know, how they approach the game and stuff like that. And what Jordan had to look at, you know, being in college, being in high school. So, you know, it would have been nice to see a little bit more magic, but you know, we got a chance to see him, you know, the Lakers a little bit and the USA team. So we got a chance to see a little bit of that.
Fred Hammond:
Yeah. I did like when magic, they had the practice on the dream team and he said, you better be air Jordan right now. Cause you’re down by six. And magics throws the ball in the stands and then they get on the bus and I go everybody’s tends. And he goes, well, I guess there’s a new sheriff in town. And it was magic passing the Baton, Michael. Really? That was cool.
Kelly Walker:
Glad they left. Yeah. Okay. So then that’s a good transition too though on the flip side episode five, we see Kobe. So, um, they kind of do again to me, not enough, um, backstory, but we see like the beginning of like young with the young Kobe. Um, and the start of what we know later is a strong relationship between the two, but man, didn’t, y’all want to see more diving into that story.
Chad Brown:
Yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly Walker:
Any comments or thoughts on, on what we did see Kobe or, or what we know? Like, I don’t know a ton about their relationship after I’m sure there’s books and stories on it or there will be more now, but um, like do you guys know how, how their relationship went? Like was, was Jordan like a mentor to him as he was coming up in the league? Or did they become closer like later on when Jordan was done or what do y’all know about that
Fred Hammond:
Said, I think Kobe texted them a lot and asked him a lot of questions. Like how do you do a fade away? And this and that? I think Kobe desperately wanted to be better than Michael. He desperately wanted to be viewed like Michael, but I don’t think he ever achieved that. I thought it was really interesting when they showed the all star game. You’ve got Michael and Kobe in there and Michael’s posting him up and fade away and hit another and he wins the MVP and it was Michael’s way of saying I’m still the big dog here. You’re, you’re pretty good, but you’re not me yet. So I’m really cool. Little dynamic between the two.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. Chad, you’re a Kobe guy, right? Yeah. So, so what were your thoughts on any of that or what you know about their relationship?
Chad Brown:
Um, well, you know, I watched a lot of documentaries and read a lot of books on Kobe. And the biggest thing with him is that, you know, he talked about Jordan so much. He said, man, look, he said, everything that you see from me, I got from Jordan. So, you know, when you see me doing these moves and the championships I’ve won, I’ve literally watched film on the nineties bulls, you know, I watched, you know, his demeanor, his approach for the game and he was he’s, you know, I was watching this documentary. He was like, you know, me and me and Jordan had a, we have a great relationship and everybody compares us to, and it was funny cause he said that, you know me, I just wanted to win at basketball. He said, Jordan wanted to win at anything possible,
Kelly Walker:
Two quarters in the locker room. Right? Like any
Chad Brown:
Flipping quarters is in the locker room where these playing cards on the plane where he’s playing golf with his guys, like he just, he didn’t want to lose, you know, Kobe was, you know, he said, when he got into the league, you know, he, Jordan kind of took him under his wing and was like, Hey man, he’s a steps in the approach you have to take in order to be great. And you know, just watching, you know, their documentaries, you know, it shows, it shows, you know, the accolades shows, you know, how they approach the game and why they compare, why people compare them so much because you know, they had a great relationship and they both, they played similar, you know, they definitely do.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. So I, like I said, wish they would have been more Kobe. And I don’t know when this was all like wrapped and filmed. I mean, I, first of all, when I first heard this was even happening, I was like, how did they obviously thought ahead were filming this all this time? And it’s like, I’m just fascinated at the release timing and, and um, just all of this. So I don’t even know when every, when these side interviews were done, but I wish there could have been more insight from, from Kobe’s point of view. I’m sure there’s stuff out there. I need to go search it up and like actually watch more on it. Cause this was just a tiny peek into it, but okay. Let’s talk about the shoes. So in this episode they start talking about this Nike deal. Um, we get to see how Michael was really reluctant, um, big shoe deals weren’t I mean, it wasn’t, it just wasn’t at all, what it is now obviously really carved out, but I just thought it was cool that his mama basically said, no, we’re going to go we’re going, even though you don’t want to go meet with these men, we’re going to go out, see what they have to say. We got to see footage of him like going to Nike and hearing from the Nike guys. And, so I think they said their goal was to sell $3 million in shoes. And then do you guys remember kinda what they ended up with that year?
Fred Hammond:
It’s like 122 million the first year or something.
Chad Brown:
I think it was something like that. 122, 23, something like that. Yeah.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. You’re one, that’s just one and it’s still, yeah. I mean, it’s crazy. There’s another documentary out. I think it’s, um, AJ1 one or [inaudible], I don’t know. I don’t know what, like what the actual name of it is, but it’s specifically about like the background, the whole background with, um, Jordan’s, um, from like,
Chad Brown:
Oh, I’ve seen that. I know what you’re talking about. Yeah. The legendary, AJ1 or something like that. Yeah. I know he’s talking about shoes.
Kelly Walker:
I found it shortly after this or maybe during last dance was happening. And so it was like a whole nother dive into, um, just the background and the it’s really more, more than just, I guess, Jordan, but like everything from culture, like how, just everything shifted just fascinating if you haven’t seen it yet. I think AJ1, I think is what it was called, but it’s cool. They talked a lot of like hip hop guys and just like tons of guys. Um, and probably girls, I don’t know. It’s a guy thing I think about just what they remember and just the, the history of the, of the shoe. But, um, I also thought it was interesting that they paid Michael I think $250,000 for that, um, spokesmen. I think they, they got him at a, quite a steal, right?
Chad Brown:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Fred Hammond:
And Adidas wanted at the time they didn’t have the resources. I mean, can you imagine the guy that said, cause Michael wanted Adidas? It sounded like on the show and imagine the guy that says Michael, we can’t afford, I mean, that’s a billion billions of dollar mistake.
Kelly Walker:
Chad, are you a Jordan shoe guy?
Chad Brown:
I have a couple of Jordans. I like the style. Um, definitely like, you know, I love the player. I love what he did to the game. Um, just out of respect for him, you know, I have a couple of pair of Jordan’s shoes, also like a style, like I said as well. So, you know, even in that time though, you know, I felt like Jordan, you know, getting all the, the, the accolades and the shoe deals and stuff like that, you know, I felt like he was just so focused on basketball too. He really didn’t, he didn’t let the shoe game and the end, the deal’s overwhelming, you know, it didn’t really overwhelm them, but you know, a lot of players nowadays, you know, you see younger guys and stuff, getting these deals and stuff and it’s like, Oh man, like everything is, it’s just, it’s just too much, you know? And you know, he didn’t let that really overwhelming. Cause he knew that it was just one thing about, and it was just about basketball. So, you know, I felt like he handled it really well though with, you know, with the shoe deals and things, things like that.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. Like, um, when you say that it reminds me, I guess when he was shooting space jam, instead of being kind of like gone and not available, we said, Oh, we’ll just bring everybody to you. Everybody can do this facility and everybody can come work out with you. And then it ended up being like an all star game. He went, yeah. Cool. I didn’t know that.
Fred Hammond:
I didn’t either. It just shows you, the guy, all he wanted to do was when and play basketball and he knew everything else would take care of itself.
Chad Brown:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then the schedule that he had behind it, you know, him having to wake up early in the morning, shoot all day, you know, getting maybe an hour or two rest and then wanting to go at night and play pickup with the guys like man, that’s a, that’s a schedule, man. You know, you have to, you have to be wired differently to, to be able to do those types of things, man.
Kelly Walker:
It wasn’t just your regular pickup with the guys that was like all out
Chad Brown:
Yeah. I mean guys that you know, are completely all stars. You know, you have to go with compete against those guys, you know, and they want to compete as well. So it’s like, man, you know, you got my full respect to, to do that. You know, Reggie Miller said it too. He said he was like a vampire man.
Kelly Walker:
I think those practice sessions were better, better competition than today’s all star games are, you know, the watered down all star games we get sometimes now it happens everywhere.
Fred Hammond:
And didn’t he say, one of the things he loved about that is he’d learned guys tendencies, like he’s you do a film, but he’s also saying, okay, I can also learn how Reggie plays and I can learn how he played an alert at all. It’s like he used that to his advantage always. Right?
Chad Brown:
Yep. Yep, absolutely. Yep. You got a chance to see those guys in the summer. You see what they’re working on? Like, okay. Like you said, this is what Reggie does. This was Chris Mullin. Does Karl Malone does, you know, he’s just watching all the guys and know just evaluating them, see, okay, this is what I need to work on for the off season to be right for these guys. Okay.
Kelly Walker:
Always studying, being prepared. One last topic to finish out our chats here. So we also get to see in this episode a little bit of them, more of that Olympics talk. So you, Fred, you mentioned Adidas earlier. So I thought it was funny how Jordan sort of says, Oh, you’re making me wear Adidas right now. Or was it Reebok? I don’t know, but how he covered his logo with the flag. It’s like, no, Nike got me. So like when they were talking about how I don’t remember that personally, but when they were talking about how he refused to do it, I’m sitting there thinking, how is he not going to wear it? Like, how’s he going to do this? And then it’s like, genius. You just cover it up with the flag who can get mad at you for covering up with the American flag.
Chad Brown:
Yeah, no, that’s true. And honestly, it just shows the respect that he had for the people that he was working with at the time, you know, like, Hey man, you guys can let me, you know, I can’t wear this, you know, I’m working with these guys, you know, this just, it’s just the respect that he had, you know, respect the respect that he had for people that he worked with. And it’s like, you know, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna do that by where something else. So, you know, you can’t get in trouble by covering up the American flag, like you said. So I feel like he did it. He took the right approach.
Kelly Walker:
Genius move. Yeah. And then we also see the return of like the Jerry Krause effect. How with Tony, I don’t, I don’t think I’ve heard Kukoc. So like, just because Jerry Krause liked him and was kind of like courting him. Right. Um, they basically set like, not just Jordan, but everybody basically said, let’s go show, let’s go make him look bad to kind of show that like, no, we’re your guys like, no, don’t go start plucking this guy. Like they had a vendetta, they made it a vendetta. Right. That was nothing to deserve it. I mean
Chad Brown:
Off man, like, you know, he just wanted to come to the United States. He played basketball and that’s it.
Kelly Walker:
Right. Like it worked out. But I mean, they shut him down for, I don’t, I don’t remember. I mean, obviously he comes around, it’s kind of funny. And then they all end up, they all ended up coming around on it with him later on. But man, it’s just another one of those examples of like, if you pissed Jordan off, even if you don’t even have a guy that like Tony didn’t do anything to piss him off, it was just the Jerry Krause seemed to like him. That was enough to spark, you know, this little fuse for sure. I thought that was crazy. And then of course they go on and we get to see they didn’t, they didn’t harp too much on, on dream team stuff. I guess that’s a whole nother story. And there’s, there’s documentaries made on that. I think there’s a 30 for 30 specifically on
Chad Brown:
Oh, the dream team. Yeah, there is. Yeah. I’ve seen it. Yeah, absolutely. It’s really good.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. Um, and then the, my final note for this episode was, um, 92 finals. They sort of break down, um, the lead up to like the shrug, the, the, make, the shot shrug kind of famous Jordan.I see Chad smiling on that one. They’re all smiling. Like it’s just one of those iconic things that, there’s a couple of things. I think of when I think of Jordan, it’s the, it’s the strug after the shot and, um, dunking from the free throw line. So like, I guess my question to each of you then is to wrap it up, like what comes in here? What is in your mind when somebody talks about Jordan? Like what do you first think of?
Fred Hammond:
I think of the shrug. And I also think of the reason behind the shrug and what kind of led up to that is it was against Clyde Drexler, which was sort of being like, is it Jordan? Is it Drexler? And they said, well, Drexler’s a better three point shooter. And I remember Michael saying, he’s a better three point shooter than I choose to be. The next night was when the shrug happened. When he hit the six threes in the first half or whatever. And it was his way of saying, there is no competition. If I want to shoot threes, I’ll shoot threes and I’ll show you. And to me it was just whatever Michael decided he was going to be. He was going to be, and nobody was going to be, and that’s what, I’ll just always, if I need to pass tonight, I’ll pass. I need to play defense tonight. I need to go to the free-throw, whatever I decided it was going to happen, it’s going to happen and I will win and you will lose and I’ll make sure that’s just what I think of when I think of Jordan and just the legend that he is with that.
Chad Brown:
Yeah. No, absolutely. I totally agree with you, man. I think that, you know, when I first think of Jordan, I think of the shrug, I think of this final shot as a bull, you know, I think of all those, I mean the shrug, like you said, you know, he’s playing against Clyde and at the time it was Jordan and Clyde. And he took offense today. He was like, man, look, I don’t want to be compared to this guy. You know, he’s a good player, really a good player. You know, I just I’m, I’m my own player, you know, I don’t want to be compared to nobody. So, you know, and you know, athletes and players, man, you take offense to being compared to somebody else. Like, you know, we’re playing so it’s like, okay, I’m gonna show these guys. So did the shrug. And it’s like, Hey man, I told you guys, man, I’m just out here just playing the game, you know? And that’s it, you know, just think about like you said, man, it just his determination to win. Um, even down to the last shot of his, his bulls career, you know, it just shows that his approach to the game was just so, so serious. And he took a strong approach. And you know, when you think about him, that’s, that’s, that’s what I think about just his demeanor to the game, for sure.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. So before the series came out, he said, I’m a little worried because I think people aren’t gonna like me when they see this. And I thought, Oh man, what are we going to get to see? But, um, as we’re halfway done here, I’m just curious, like to kind of wrap this up. Do you guys, now that you saw, do you think that cause I, I personally don’t like, I don’t think any less of him, I just see like more insight into his serious determination and serious stuff too. But like I just saw more of what his drives were drivers were and yeah, he was a hard ass and not always, um, kind to everybody around him, but focused. But does, um, the, seeing this change anything for y’all?
Fred Hammond:
No, it actually creates more respect for just realizing the price to win was so intense. I had no idea that it enveloped him that much. I knew he was big on it, but I didn’t know it was like about everything. So it’s almost like just the opposite. I have way more respect for him. And if there was any doubt on who the greatest was, it’s no doubt in my mind now.
Kelly Walker:
What about you, Chad? Did it change how you see Jordan?
Chad Brown:
Oh no. I like, I totally agree with you, man. I honestly, it made me have even more respect for him because you know, as a player, you know, everything’s not going to be pretty, everything’s not going to be pretty on the court. You’re going to have your confrontations with your teammates and things like that. You know? And his teammates said, he said, man, we were scared of that dude a little bit, man. But you know, he made us better. No, he made us better. He pushed us and you know, he sent his own documentary. He said, man, I was going to push guys because I had a high standard, you know, and you know, as a competitor, man, you, you want to play with guys like that. You know, even the confrontations and the fights and arguments, you know, it’s, it’s understandable. That’s the nature of the sport, but you know, you know, like you all say, I, I just feel like my respect level went even higher for him. You know, just watching him with his teammates, you know, and things like that. How he just, how he approached the game, you know, he, wasn’t trying to come in and joke and laugh around, you know, when it started to be serious as serious, you know, they have fun with the game, but you know, it’s all about winning at won’t, you know, and the game of basketball. So you have to be serious and take that type of approach.
Kelly Walker:
Yeah. Well, thanks guys. This got us through halfway. So we’ll wrap up our, uh, this hustle and pro episode before we dive into the last half of the last dance episodes. But Chad, thanks again for joining us from Florida. And then I know that you’re still there. Um, hopefully we will see you back in Frisco in the, I don’t know, fall whenever, whenever things are coming back around and you you’re allowed to show your face here in Frisco. Again, I’m keeping my fingers crossed the NBA and the G league figure out a way to get us some, some basketball here in the fall or whatever. Um, and Fred, thank you for taking time out of your day to chat with us and chat. So thanks everybody for listening to this episode of hustle and pro don’t forget to subscribe. However you listen to your podcasts.
Our Take on The Last Dance – Part 1