In this episode, we wrap up our three-part discussion on ESPN’s docuseries The Last Dance.
Malcolm Farmer, President and GM of the Texas Legends, joins us with his own perspective and insight, plus our pal Fred Hammond is back again.
We explore a lot in this episode – Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, George Karl, Karl Malone, Steve Kerr, Reggie Miller, and the Jazz and Pacers.
We talk about Michael Jordan’s dad and how it impacted me personally, having lost my dad that same summer in 1993.
Did Reinsdorf make a mistake letting them all end it after six championships? Was there enough in the tank for a seventh? I loved this docuseries (obviously) and hope you’ve enjoyed listening to our three-part review.
Enjoy this chat and listen to other episodes of Hustle & Pro.
Show Notes
- [00:55] Episode 6 – Gambling, Finals Vs Suns and Confidence
- [05:30] Episode 7 – Dad
- [08:45] Parenting’s Influence in Sports
- [10:25] Baseball
- [11:50] Episode 8 – MJ’s Targets
- [14:50] Steve Kerr
- [17:50] Episode 9 – Miller & Malone
- [22:55] Episode 10 – One Match
- [23:15] Control
- [25:20] Pippen and Rodman full circle
- [30:30] Coffee can sentiments & how it ended
Resources within this episode:
- The Last Dance on ESPN
- Malcolm Farmer: Bio | LinkedIn | Twitter
- Texas Legends: Website | Texas Legends on Lifestyle Frisco
- Fred Hammond | Countdown 2 Escape | Linked In | Facebook | Instagram
- Kelly Walker: Instagram @kelly_walkertexas | Twitter: @kelly_walker_TX
Connect with Lifestyle Frisco:
Transcript: (machine-generated)
Welcome to Hustle and Pro season two, talking sports in Frisco from youth to pro. Now here’s your host Kelly Walker.
Welcome to this episode of Hustle and Pro thanks for joining us. So we are wrapping up our conversation on the last dance. We’ve got a new, a new guest with us today to give his perspective. So Malcolm Farmer, this president and general manager of the Texas Legends is with us today via zoom. Thanks for hopping on Malcolm,
Anytime Kelly. We’re excited to jump into this and, uh, talk some last dance.
Yeah. So you’ve got to fill Chad Brown’s shoes. He’s given us his perspective, the last few episodes. That’s funny, literally fill Chad Brown’s shoes.
He’s got the big shoes, right? I don’t know if I can do that, but look, I’ll, I’ll do what I can here to provide some value.
Fantastic. And we also have Fred Hammond he’s back again for the third episode in this series to chat with us. So let’s jump in. We’ve got a lot to cover, cause we’re going to wrap up episode six through 10 here in the next several minutes. So, and episode six, um, we, we really dive into Jordan’s gambling. So, um, they talked to us about him going to Atlantic city. I think it was, um, before a game to have an Eastern conference finals. Um, and they lost that game and they, they talked to his teammates and everybody about how that affected them. And then he comes back and of course, what do you, nothing less you’d expect for game the next few games that he’s back better than ever for those games. Um, so you guys probably, we all knew about Jordan’s gambling before this, but did this, did this shed any new light on anything or give you a different perspective, seeing it on, on the show?
It gave me a perspective of, uh, how it is the, the media reports and the, uh, the accusations, if you will. That Michael Jordan took actually I think really brought that team closer together. Um, they kind of use it as a rallying cry, um, quite a bit. And if I recall correctly, they had lost the first two games of that series. Um, and if I recall correctly, they won the next four. Um, so if anything, it would have worked against, uh, the Knicks and their hopes of finally advancing to the defeating, uh, MJ.
Yup. And that kind of feeds into this next topic. They show us. So we talked about a lot about confidence and, and just insane level of confidence that Jordan had to pull off some of the things that he was able to, to walk the walk. So they, um, really detail the finals versus sons with, um, Charles Barkley, even saying that he played the best that he could and he just flat out couldn’t, couldn’t be Jordan. Um, but they show us the series and the bullets go up to, Oh, and then the son’s got game three and I think it was three overtime, triple overtime. Um, and then the bulls come back and then the sentence come back and all this. So it was back and forth. And, um, MJ talked about how he only packed one suit. Like he’s not going to play more than another game there. Right. He’s on, he’s playing one, they’re going to win and they’re going to come home. I love that. I thought that was really interesting to really see that confidence. I don’t know, in this day and age, if that’s how it works anymore, who packs what for who and what they take on road trips. But, um, but what’d, you guys think about that level of confidence knowing like we’re not, we’re not staying there for two games, right?
Yeah. The thing with Michael Jordan is she always backed it up. He’d make the comments. He was serious. I think the teammates took note that Michael is serious right now. We all have to play to a level of one suit performance or else is going to be unpleasant. But again, as Michael always did, he backed it up and it went and he only needed one suit and went home with the championship.
Yeah, no question. Is it something that you hear occasionally during the NBA playoffs now, even today, [inaudible] players packing one suit, um, Pat Riley is quoted with that a few times. And, um, you know, I think that one of the unique things is you can kind of tell when it’s a, a player or a coach just talking. Um, they’re saying it, you know, with Michael Jordan, I think that, um, via, because of fear, um, or be it because of the respect that his teammates out for him or via, because they knew how serious he was. I don’t think it was ever perceived as just talk, you know, when, when he says said that I took it as, uh, his teammates would be like, okay, that’s if we don’t have that same mentality, um, not only might we lose, but even worse than that, you know, Michael Jordan made me go down. Yeah. Very quickly. We’re going to bring everything we have in game six.
Yeah. Okay. And I said, Charles Barkley in there and it guy loved Charles Barkley. I think it’s really interesting that, that he flat out just said, you know, kind of at that moment of admitting, like he was just better than me or us as a team, which is hard. I feel bad for Charles Barkley over the years, but I love him all the same.
Okay. Charles Barkley, he’s doing just fine. I know he’s doing just fine. I just hit a lovable guy and I don’t know,
But that’s part of what makes Charles Charles is authenticity. He says what he really feels he’s not putting on airs for anyone. Right. This is what he does. That’s his chick.
Okay. I know that was a quick episode six, but I’m excited to jump into seven, I think seven, eight and nine. These are some of the best moments of this whole series. So, um, I feel like episode seven was kind of the, the father, the dad episode. Um, they really explain how Michael loses his father in 93, his father James, um, like personally, just so y’all know, this was, this was really big for me. Um, I lost my dad, uh, June of 93. So to watch all this backwards, you know, looking at these dates and just like reliving these moments, um, for personally was really interesting connection to watch during this. Um, and my dad was also my sports guy. Like he was my coach. He was the person that taught me everything about softball and baseball and watching sports on TV and all these other things and coached us. So this was, um, a really important episode to me. We see a lot of tearful moments, um, from, from coaches and teammates, um, about his dad, you know, being at every game and bringing kids down to meet Michael from the nosebleeds and really cool moments like that. Um, so I’m curious in your opinions, how much credit should we give James for shaping the player that Michael turned out to be?
I think any father, any parent mother or father can never get enough credit for the work they’ve done. Um, and that’s, that’s irrespective of Michael Jordan and Jamie Jordan. Um, I think that any parent, the sacrifices that they make are unbeknownst to a child or a young man. Um, I don’t think, I think it would be impossible to give James Jordan too much credit.
Right. To overstate the importance of what, yeah.
Just to jump in on what you were saying there about your, your own parents there. Kelly, I think that, and the Charles Barkley, you know, Fred’s comment about his authenticity. I think that Michael Jordan, um, you know, at times came across as very corporate, right. There was an image and that image transcended all boundaries, but I felt like watching this in hindsight, um, and knowing that he had failed in 95 to come back and win, um, to watch a 96, the, it made it more authentic. It made it more real, um, to be watching this and see what he went through, um, in terms of, you know, his father’s passing, uh, winning the championship on father’s day, um, and to see his response to having lost the previous year, um, I thought that it made, it gave him a level of authenticity that, um, Michael Jordan didn’t always have because of the image that he constantly upheld.
Right. Yeah. There was a moment when they talk about, I think it was Michael’s telling his story could have been the mom about, um, him getting in, maybe starting to go down the wrong path as a teenager. And his dad basically sat him down and gave him an ultimatum. Like this is a, he said, you can do mischievous stuff or you can do sports, you choose. And so that’s what Michael, I think said that was it like, that’s what I needed to hear, to make my decision. And then it was like, never looking back after that.
Yeah. And I mean, that’s what dads do is they guide their sons and cheer them on, but discipline them when they need to. And, um, that was a tipping point for him, if that wouldn’t have been present, who knows if we even know who Michael Jordan was or is.
Yeah. Do you think it’s fair to say, um, that the death of his father like took the passion out enough right then and there that it, it forced him into retirement? Or do you think there were so many other factors at play? Like what do you think that was a huge factor for him? The, the one factor.
I think it was a combination of a number of things. I mean, so much pressure, so much scrutiny, so much. Um, you’re going to have to do it again and again and again, then dad dies and it’s just, I need a break psychologically. I can’t continue at this intensity. And I think that was probably what it would be. That’s my perception of it.
It may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back, but there was an awful lot there prior to that, they were both pushing him towards baseball and towards trying something new, you know, Dick Bennett is a long time college basketball coach. He’s got a, he made a speech once and you basically said that everyone’s got a fire inside of them. They’ve all got a passion and a fire. And when you open up that furnace door, what happens is, is your fire goes out to everybody else and that’s good. Cause everyone can take from that and have that passion, but it lessens the fire in you. And so I feel like the fire had been, the door had been open to the furnace in Michael Jordan for too long and he didn’t have the same fire left and he had to go somewhere to, to rekindle that
Yeah. The same level of fire. Yeah. Okay. So, so then baseball, which is, um, I love this part of the story, even though a lot of kind of haters now look back and like joke. Right. But so he hadn’t played organized baseball in 14 years and goes out and gets, gets to a level that some people can never even get to when they small, as their single focus sport their whole life. So it really wasn’t a bad effort at all. Um, and I, and I wanted to note that, um, Terry Francona even said that he would have made his way to the majors. It was just a matter of time. So it was just a clock that really stopped his, um, trajectory in baseball. Do you guys, what do you, how do you guys look at is his stint in baseball?
I think it’s remarkable to go from NBA basketball player, not playing baseball for 14 years in one of the hardest sports of all time to hit a fast ball curve ball, all of these different things, not to mention the fielding part to make that translation just shows what an incredible athlete he was or is.
I think it just shows his, uh, his work ethic and a lot of people can display that work ethic on the way up. Um, and they lose it some once they’re, once they’ve arrived, so to speak. And in Michael Jordan had that work ethic at the beginning, and then he was willing to start all over again and embrace it all the same.
All right. Let’s move on to episode eight, unless there’s something else you guys know you want to hit on in seven, there are actually a few other things that happen in seven, but we’re going to circle back to them because they kind of tie in everything here in a second. So episode eight, um, we, we see a lot of examples, um, that we’ve seen throughout the whole of sort of that, that trigger effect when somebody just says or looks at you the wrong way. And Michael takes that as his, going back to your Malcolm, your example, his fuel to just turn it on and kind of destroy them. So we see like BJ Armstrong, um, that Michael destroyed the Hornets after BJ kind of got under his skin. And, um, I had to look this one up, I forgot this one, but look, Bradford Smith. So he scored 37 points. And Michael had said that he, after the game, he said, nice game, Mike, that was it. And then it, it made him mad enough to where after that, the next night he goes in scores, 36 in the first half. And then he comes back later and admits that he made that up and that he didn’t ever even say anything to him. It’s just kind of like he made up his own fuel. Right. Um, we saw it with Gary Peyton, um, when, when he said that he got to Jordan in the 96 finals. And then I love when Jordan gets to see those on the iPad or whatever, they were handing him on the last dance and him getting to react to it. Did you guys love seeing those reactions as much as I did?
Yeah. That was part of the whole thing
Of seeing what he thought. Like if he saw a clip for the first time, like this Gary Payne example, right. Getting to just see his actual reaction. And it was always the same thing.
It’s just like, that’s what I do. And like, it’s almost his kill. I’m still gonna that kill. I may look at that kill. I may just to a guy that was obsessed with
And winning that all costs. Yeah. And they also talked about George, George, Carl, um, phonics coach walking past him at dinner and how Michael was like so offended that he didn’t say anything. And now it’s like, I don’t know who knows what really happened. Cause he’s, you know, admitted that he makes some of this stuff up. But, but Malcolm, I’m curious from your perspective, like, I mean, is that, is that real stuff that really like, there’s that much drama of a glance at dinner or a single word or comment that to these players from a coach or somebody in the front office that can really set somebody off that bad
Certain individuals, the answer is undoubtedly. Yes. Um, people in certain individuals will look for every single edge possible, even the ones that they make up themselves. And yes, it can, it can drive a player, it can drive anybody in, in any number of careers. It can drive them, um, to new Heights. Um, so yeah, the answer is yes.
Okay. So there’s some controversy in something we hear Steve Kerr say in this episode, he said that the 95 96 bulls was the best team that he’s ever been a part of. So the Twitter verse kind of went crazy after seeing this because it’s like, what about, what about the warriors? And, um, you know, does he mean as a player? Does he mean as a coach and all this? So do you guys have any, any thoughts on that from Steve Kerr?
Well, it’s interesting Steve coach, the team that beat them in terms of victory. So, I mean, he has a firsthand perspective of both sides of it, but when you think of that bulls team, it had it all, it had role players they’d came off the bench and did exactly what they needed to do. It had the greatest basketball player in the world. It had motivation from, you know, Michael Jordan leadership. And it just to me, he had it all on that team. Whereas golden state, I don’t know, it’s a different style of basketball than that team was. It was, to me, that team was more of a basketball team than a three point shooting team. Like the golden state warriors were so Jamar, my viewpoint is that it was the bowls, not in a way that’s controversial.
I think Steve Kerr knows that and told me the thing without the ring. I think he knows. And that team that won more games, they didn’t win the end of the day. They didn’t win it. And Steve Kerr knows that you gotta, you gotta finish the deal too, to have that title.
And while we’re on Steve Kerr, um, it kind of bounces around a few episodes, but we saw like the interaction when Michael fouled him, I think it was a practice. Right. And then Kirk kind of punched him in the chest a little. And then Michael, like actually punched him, like hit him. Um, and then after practice, he called to apologize. And then they were okay after that, I think Steve Kerr said they were, they were fine going forward. They had mutual respect, but it kind of needed that, that needed to happen for Michael to understand that he was going to take this role seriously. Um, I think Michael said he was, he likes to toughen up his teammates and that was evident with Scott Burrell over and over, I think in a couple of these episodes. But, and then we also get to see the personal side of Steve Kerr story with his, the similar story of his dad. Um, and that impact I had, I had no idea. I don’t know much about Steve Kerr’s background, so you guys might have, but did you guys, was that news to you guys too? Or did you all know that back when it happened?
I was aware, um, you know, Steve Kerr has got a whole lot of levels to him in a very great way. Um, I’ve been aware of that story for a long time and there are certainly some stories out there of, you know, the, the abuse that Steve took as a college player, um, following the death of his dad from rival fan bases. And, um, Steve car’s got a tremendous perspective on life.
Yeah. It made me, um, because I don’t know his backstory, it, it, it definitely made me respect his sort of full circle journey a lot more. I want to, I want to dig in and learn more about him because of it.
I thought it was hilarious when Steve Kerr said I was just as competitive as Jordan. I just couldn’t back it up. That cracked me up.
Right. Got to admit it. Okay. So jumping into episode nine, um, we see there was a lot here and you guys jump in, if there’s something you want to expand on, but we see the story of Pacers, um, kind of being one of the toughest opponents for the bulls. Um, and we get to, to see Reggie Miller and how they locked horns a lot. And, um, really for a long time, I think it, I think it went, it bounced back and forth a lot. This is where some of the times, if I wasn’t focusing too well on the dates, I kind of got lost in the order of things. But I mean, they were talking about spanning all the, all like 93 to 98. Um, but this is where the don’t ever talk trash to black Jesus came into play here, which was interesting to hear from their, their perspectives. Right. And how just that rivalry lived on for so long. Are they, are they still like that or are they okay now I couldn’t tell.
I would venture to say that Michael Jordan doesn’t let any, any grudge or any, any slide ever go. I mean, I think that’s one of the takeaways from the whole thing, you know, you mentioned the Pacers series and, um, I can, I can remember where I was watching game seven and there was, you know, there was real doubt. I was a bulls fan, but there was real doubt during the course of that game and the bulls really pull it off. Um, and it wasn’t pretty, um, but the end of the day they, they persevered and, um, but yeah, in terms of the black Jesus comment and the relationships, uh, amongst those guys now, I mean, I, I would venture to say that Michael Jordan doesn’t be, I’m pretty sociable. He is nice, but I’m sure you see it when he end over that iPad. Um, you know, and I need to go,
I don’t think he had, I don’t think these are all his besties now. Like the Carl Malone, I was in this episode too. And I’ve seen clips since this aired right. Of Karl Malone’s opinions on some of, some of the things that he saw. Um, but they all, did you want to say anything about caramel?
No, I was just going to say, I think Reggie Miller was one player that truly didn’t fear. Michael Jordan. He was a gunner. He could miss 10 shots in a row, still take the 11th and still think he’s going to make it and talk trash with Jordan afterwards. He was that one guy that was just truly fearless as a basketball player.
All right, Malcolm, is it, was it as weird for you to watch as it was for me to go to understand and buy that pizza delivery story and the hotel? Like, why is a trainer going, Oh, it’s midnight or whatever, you’re hungry. How about a pizza? And let’s like, how weird is that?
Uh, certainly different. Um, it’d be very different in today’s NBA where we’re health and nutrition is a constant focus. And then certainly it was then as well, but it was just, it was different. And you see it as Michael Jordan is puffing away on cigar and a lot of different shots. Um, you know, there’s different things that, you know, have become more, um, you know, players become more aware of. And, um, it doesn’t surprise me that they ordered a pizza. Uh, having heard a lot of the other stories about that flu game, you know, what, what you choose to believe at this point is a little bit irrelevant. I think that anybody who watched that game absolutely tell that Michael Jordan is nowhere near a hundred percent. Um, and just, there’s a refusal there to leave the game in the fourth quarter. There’s a refusal to give in. There’s a refusal to accept that they’re going to lose. And that’s what allowed the bulls to do what they did for, you know, six out of eight years
Pizza delivery. They did not do anything to Michael’s peer to that pizza. And there were not five of them delivering the pizza and that story has been retold incorrectly. I just thought it was a funny little thing they added in there, but what is happening? Um, I meant to say this when we were talking about Steve Kerr a little bit, because we did see that funny moment. Um, just before we jump off of episode nine, when Jordan says, um, I think it was a Utah game, um, you know, he knows they’re going to be double teaming me and says, I think he on the, on the sidelines during a timeout, be ready and see it was that when Steve Kerr was like, I’ll be ready, I’ll be ready. Yeah. I thought that was funny, but there’s very like few times in this whole thing that we actually, they called out this whole, like, we’re going to give the ball to someone else, you know, moments.
Um, and they, and so, okay. Let’s fast forward to episode 10, unless y’all have anything else you want to jump into with Reggie Miller, Karl Malone, anything else on, on that? Okay. So episode 10 is the last hour, 10th hour of the last dance. Um, and this one, I don’t know if it’s really titled one match, but that’s kind of what people were referring it to because, um, Jordan says, all you need is one little match to start that whole fire. And so Malcolm, I know you have the fire reference here aligns with all that, but the symbolism I personally like thought the symbolism to finish this series off was really incredible how they tied this all together. And, um, um, especially with Phil Jackson, what he did. So I want to talk about that, but, um, I want y’all to input on, so in the 98 finals versus the jazz, you see Jordan explain about kind of control or things that are out of his control. We all know he, he had control and was obsessive about controlling what he could in the game, but then he also talks about why would I think about missing a shot that I haven’t even taken yet. So how does not worrying about things out of your control, really factor in here to someone like with this much greatness?
I think that it, it is all about who Michael Jordan is. It sums it up is, um, and it’s a unique gift to be able to focus 100% of your being of your thoughts of your heart on the positive outcome. That’s about to occur versus having that doubt, you know? And, um, Steve Kerr, I’m sure he is as competitive as that ever, but there’s no question in my mind that when, when Michael Jordan turned to Andrew in that time out that you referenced, he says, I’ll be ready. I think that as more like, yeah, I’m going to be ready. What else am I supposed to say here? Um, you know, it’s a very rare athlete that has the ability to never even consider the negative possibility. And I think that’s what a Michael Jordan, um, such a leg up on a ton of his, all of his peers. Um, I think that’s a huge component of it.
Yeah. And I think that’s hard. That’s easier said than done. I think a lot of us worry about things that are out of our control all the time. And what do people think about? And I think nowadays the will people react, how people react to different things is different than it was then, because your audience is different now, especially for players and what they say and do and where and everything.
You know what though? I think it’s easy to be a serial optimist when you’re gifted. Like he is, he can do everything, Steve Kerr. So, I mean, you can kind of think positively, but if you don’t have the game, the complete ability to take over and dominate something, it’s probably not as easy to think. It’s like knowledge breeds, confidence. The guy knew how to win. The guy knew everything. He had all the skills. So I don’t want to discount the fact that he was optimistic, but he had the skills to be optimistic. I can be optimistic and try to get a trial from Malcolm. I don’t think it’s happening.
Right. It doesn’t go all of it. Doesn’t do it all. So we also see some more wheels off Rodman in this episode when he goes and does his wrestling stint. Um, we’re just funny and crazy. And we see Scotty’s back problems. Um, really like nearly crippling him in that last game. And Jordan’s saying, I just need you out here. I just need you as a body. I need you to be out here. Um, so there were some cool, full, full circle moments when they go through that amazing last 30 seconds, um, of, of Jordan having the ball. And he said, he, he knew Phil, wasn’t gonna call time out. So he, he dribbled the ball down. And one of my favorite moments in this whole series was when they cut to Rodman and he’s like, he’s not going to pass. Right. And then they, and then Pippen says, just get the hell out of his way. Like, that’s their role at that time. They know what everybody on the court knows what’s happening. And it was just cool. Like that was a give, give you chills moment. And then they go into the, um, that shot with, I don’t know, I think five, second flats where he hits famous makes the shot to go up. Um, but man, was that, did you guys love that as much as I did see in that part,
It was a perfect end into his career. I mean, that was the last memory of Michael Jordan and that’s exactly how, you know, we’ll always think of game winner at the buzzer or not.
Yeah. It gives me chills to this day. Um, and you know, one thing that I, I think people lose sight of is that, that final game, the score was in the eighties. And you, you, you sometimes there’s players that are compared to Michael Jordan frequently, and those games are scored in 120, you know, the usage rate, you know, Michael Jordan was shooting the ball an insane number of times compared to the total of our shots. The team took the burden on him was frankly greater than a lot of other players out there because, um, you know, the value of each shot when you only have fewer and fewer possessions and the pace of the game is so much slower. Um, it, to me, it really drives home how great he was as a player. Um, and you know, literally the last three plays of that deciding game six, he made all three plays. He scored the driving layup on Russell and then got the steel from Malone and made the pull up jumper to win it.
Did he push you off Malcolm?
Of course not.
I say no also. All right, Malcolm, I’m dying to hear your answer to this question because after the last dance wrapped, I swear for a week on the ticket, all they talked about was, was how it all ended. So, um, we see Ryan sort of talking about how he offered Phil another to come back and then them just talking about the, what ifs and well, everybody would have broken all the contract talks. Um, so, and, and even Jordan saying, you know, um, I would assign for another year and then I would have forced Scotty to come back for another. Y’all all the, what if so, so how do you see that Malcolm as somebody who is in negotiations and sees the front office ins and outs of how, how the world works in basketball, how do you see how that ended?
I think that from a dollars and cents perspective, they absolutely could have figured it out. Um, but I think that it’s important to remember the Phil Jackson is a free spirit. Um, he had decided what he was going to do, and I don’t think there was, uh, any dollar figure that he would have said, yes, I think he had decided that he was done, um, this, this, this experience, this journey with the bulls had run its course. And I think with that, Jordan had made it painfully clear and I think Pippin in the same boat and Phil Jackson is not the coach or out. Um, and I think that decision, the Phil Jackson’s decision was one that, um, I don’t think Ryan’s store for anybody had any chance of ever changing his mind.
Yeah. But it’s also, it’s hard to not to wonder what if too, I agree with you. Um, but it’s also like, it’s hard. I can imagine that’s like for Michael himself to think that you could go back and win a seventh and not get the, the, the right
Know, in the right way to do that. We do. I think they would have one. [inaudible], I can ask you that. I absolutely think they would have one number seven. Can you mind? It was a shortened season of probably private arrested. A lot of guys, they wouldn’t have had necessarily the same wear and tear of a total. Um, and yeah, I think they would have won. Had they decided to come back?
Yeah,
I don’t, I don’t like blame personally. I don’t blame Ryan storm. I don’t blame crowds. I don’t blame anybody. I think that it didn’t run its course. And Phil Jackson was the right coach for that team. There is nobody else who could have handled all those personalities, especially Rodman. And he had decided that it’s time. This is over.
Yeah. Yeah. Bittersweet ending. And so I thought the series wrapped up a really cool with the, with the, of course, filled Zen fill with the coffee, can having the players write sentiments and, and in the arena, like it was so dramatic looking with the dark into arena and, and burning the sentiments and kind of just how it wrapped up on that. It was amazing. Um, and we got to see a couple kind of raw moments where like, when Michael showed some emotion, like the lack of the nice guy, you know, not getting it, he’s not going to be ever said that he was the nice guy. Um, do you, and, and also he was quoted as saying winning and leadership have a price. I pulled people up to where they didn’t want to be pulled up to. So I guess to wrap up, do you guys think it was too much, did he, or do you, do you think he ever regrets any of his intensity and pulling and pushing that hard? Or do you think he is a hundred percent content with how everything unfolded in his career?
I think people are grateful. They get to play with Michael Jordan and learn from Michael Jordan and probably didn’t feel great at the time you’re doing that. But when you look back and you look at the championships and you looked at the lessons that you learned in that yes. When he does have a price that it kind of probably makes sense now, but maybe not as much back then. And certainly wasn’t likable, but later is great leaders. Aren’t always likable.
Cool.
No, I think probably a set of, you know, leadership Duffy has a prize winning as a price, but not, I don’t think Michael Jordan regrets, any of them. Um, this is somebody who has really marched to their own beat for a very long time. Um, you know, he’s, you know, at a time here with black lives matter and whatnot, he is the only African American owner amongst 150, um, major pro sports teams. You know, he, this is a guy who was incredible.
I didn’t know that
I believe I’m right in that there’s there’s if you include MLS, MLB NBA, NFL, and the NHL, I think there’s 150 teams and he is the only African American majority principal owner.
Wow. More impact in more ways than we ever realized. Right. Especially, um, as a player and more than just as a player. So, um, I know Malcolm, uh, we’re wrapping here, but I was just because you didn’t hear our conversation earlier when we talked so much about Jerry Kraus, do you think he was a genius GM?
I think he was a very good GM from a player evaluation standpoint. And he struggled with personal relationships. You know, GM was job. One of their jobs is to make sure you have a good relationship with your best player. I suppose he was the best player in the world. Um, and he failed in that regard. It doesn’t mean you can’t be a great talent evaluator and it doesn’t mean you can’t be a great negotiator and trades, but it does mean you fail in a very critical component.
Maybe. I mean, maybe, maybe that’s the key though Malcolm, maybe you, uh, you create enough fuel between your best player that he hates you enough to go out and win in spite of you, maybe that’s a template and people need to track.
Maybe I have not going to get into that one, but maybe.
All right. Well, any other words, before we wrap up this three episode long discussion about these fun 10 hours of TV to watch, I appreciate y’alls time. Fred. I know three times sitting in here with me. Thank you. I, you like a, you’re a podcast or now famous and Malcolm. Thanks for jumping on to wrap this up.
Absolutely great job as always.
I love hearing your perspective. So thanks everybody for listening. Subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts and join us next week for more Hustle and Pro.
Our Take on The Last Dance: Part 2