Without Esports having media rights and footholds like traditional sports, how does the industry make money? How do gamers train and create good content? Should we, as parents, buy-in or resist?
Our guest, John Davidson, explains. While working at GameStop, John initiated the partnership with Jerry Jones’ Complexity Gaming, bringing the GameStop Performance Center to The Star in Frisco.
Listen as we explore the world of Esports.
Enjoy episode #60 with John Davidson. And, listen to more episodes from the Hustle & Pro archives.
Show Notes
- [00:30] John’s Esports Experience
- [03:00] Tasked with making money in Esports
- [04:40] Bringing Esports to the Star
- [10:54] Types of Big Deals: Media vs Sponsorships
- [15:20] Traditional Sports Owners Buying into Esports
- [20:40] Skeptics in Sponsorships
- [22:55] Pro Gamers
- [32:00] Advice for Gamer Parents
Resources within this episode:
- John Davidson: Twitter: @J0hnDavids0n | LinkedIn
- John’s TED Talk: https://youtu.be/4StLXX1k_9I
- GameStop Performance Center
- Complexity Gaming
- Production Resource Group
- Kelly Walker: Instagram @kelly_walkertexas | Twitter: @kelly_walker_TX
Connect with Lifestyle Frisco:
Transcript: (machine-generated)
Welcome to Hustle and Pro season two talking sports and Frisco from youth to pro. Now here’s your host, Kelly Walker.
Welcome to Hustle and Pro. We are digging a little bit deeper into eSports today. So a familiar voice is here to help John Davidson. He knows eSports because he’s worked in it via GameStop stadia ventures, uh, throughout UNT and also PRG and then some. So John, welcome. Thanks for coming back. Are you ready to jump in?
I am, thank you for having me.
So I mentioned the, um, some of the stops in your career quickly off the top, but I want to hear in your words some of your kind of credentials and work experience in this eSports world.
Yeah. So, um, essentially, uh, the, the things that I’ve done in eSports, uh, I worked at the marketing arm, um, agency of GameStop. Um, so I was on the, the agency team for GameStop there. Then I was hired onto the, uh, the brand side at GameStop, uh, to lead non-endemic partnerships. And my first day they said, we want you to figure out eSports for us. And so that was just one of those moments where it’s kind of a fork in the road first day. Yeah. They cause, you know, they’re like, okay, we have this guy who’s, who’s doing, uh, you know, he’s doing partnerships and it was a little bit of a different workflow from everybody else on the marketing team. Everybody else is managing the publishers of the video games, um, Ubisoft, Activision, et cetera, Nintendo. And so, um, they’re like, they, they gave me influencer marketing and eSports in addition to partnerships. I was like, am I getting paid three times more? The answer was no, no.
The answer is you’re the new, the new young person who can take all this on and go figure it out. Right, exactly.
You know, a lot of people say, John, that was just three years ago and you know, uh, was what was GameStop doing? Not doing anything, any sports.
Wait, this was just three years ago. Yeah. Okay. Nevermind. I’m thinking this was like ages ago for some reason.
No, no. So it’s just, I’ve been, you know, build the brand marketing, uh, experiences.
Not that you’re not the young guy. I’m just saying like for some reason I was thinking this was like at the very early forefront of eSports or something. So three years ago.
Yeah. We, eSports is basically dog years, so, right. But yeah, essentially, uh, you know, I obviously I had experienced, I was, you know, knowledgeable to a point about eSports, you know, just because I’m 36 so everybody’s been who’s my age, you know, um, playing video games as a hobby when I wasn’t skateboarding. And so, um, you know, GameStop brought me on and they S they say we should figure it out. ESports for us. And what that meant was they had dabbled in, you know, Madden back in the day. Some Streetfighter determines what they want to figure out is how can we make money doing this because it’s, it’s a very, it’s a much longer conversation. So I was tasked with figuring out how to make money in eSports at GameStop because that’s the challenge, right? Um, most eSports titles are old, meaning people already own the game.
And so new revenue for GameStop, right?
So you show up to a tournament, you’re trying to sell video games. Everybody already owns him and there’s a lot of games that are free now. So you have fortnight, um, uh, activist and just re released a new version of call of duty that’s free. It’s like kind of like a fortnight genre battle Royale genre. Um, so it’s, it’s difficult for a physical Dame gaming retailer to make money doing that. And so, you know, we figured out that way. Yeah.
They, once they’ve sold one, you know, game one unit, like they need the people that are playing it. They saw that possible monetization on the table. And that was your job to go figure out how to get some more
from any sport in the sports world. Exactly. So, um, I went to this conference and, um, it was everybody who, you know, the, the OGs of the industry, um, were there and they were very open about, we haven’t even really figured this out yet. You know, it’s, it’s still the wild, wild West. And I just saw the opportunity of like, this needs to be my focus, you know. So I came back and I said, guys, there were challenges with partnerships, um, over there with endemic brands, just the sales cycle and things of that nature is challenging when you’re promoting a game for two weeks and then you’re on to the next one, et cetera. It’s a longer conversation. But I think guys, eSports is the sponsorable opportunity. Let’s figure out our eastward strategy and then we can have sponsorships come through that. But also let’s focus on some sponsorships with some teams and some leagues. So I developed, uh, I initiated the, uh, partnership with complexity gaming, which is owned by Jerry Jones, which is the, the GameStop performance center at the Star in Frisco.
Yeah. So when you say you initiated how, what is, what do you mean, where did that come from?
Well, a lot of it is um, you know, developing relationships in business. And so, um, a guy who’s a good friend of mine now, Daniel [inaudible] the chief revenue officer at complexity gaming. And so he moved here from New York and I reached out, we became good friends. And um, for, for a long time GameStop didn’t really have any budget to do any of this stuff. Uh, we had a new CMO come in and then budget was allocated and give some opportunities. And were, we were, uh, figuring out our, our different sponsorship stuff. Like, you know, we had some old sponsorships that weren’t working for us the way they should, so we wanted to replace those with other things. And so Daniel, he, you know, to his credit, he kept in my ear saying, Hey, there’s this thing, there’s this thing. And I kept saying, I don’t have any money. I don’t have any money. And then we had a meeting where we had to replace something that we could bring in our vendor partners, you know, to regular, literally for, for co-op marketing sort of a thing. And so I said to my boss, I said, so you’re telling me you need something to replace this and we have budget to replace it? And she said yes. And I, I texted Daniel and unfortunately that was out of text, but it was like, now is your moment or some epic like that opening. Exactly the opportunity. Yeah. So him and I, you know, we started working together one on one on, you know, what this would be, what the assets would be, et cetera. Obviously then brought in the bigger team, you know, on both the GameStop side and the complexity side. Obviously the leadership, you know, the C suite has to approve these things. So, um, eventually it was these guys making the connections, but, um, brought our CMO or our new CEO and to bring meet Jerry Jones and you know, have lunch with him at, um, at the Cowboys club. And, um, just a really cool experience. It was, it was so cool to see something that’s now so tangible. You can go to the star in Frisco and you look up and you see the GameStop performance center and yep, that’s, I mean.
And that’s the one that faces faces. The actual star, like GameStop is in the building South of this star, which is the same building as like tri tip and, um, the blow dry bar at the bottom, all that. So when you’re walking around the star complex, if you leave the turf field out front, it’s basically, you know, you’d almost right to the left.
Yeah.
Okay.
In fact tri tip grill is right under that sign and they got so much free PR.
Oh cause of the yeah. Showing the opening of GameStop. Yeah. Yeah. Well we should, we had this picture of, of the building with the sign up and tri tip grill’s right there. I need to go in there with a punch card or go in there with like, I think we generated like what, like 60 million impressions or something like that. I need to go in there and be like, Hey guys. So that they appreciate it. Yeah.
Um, but one of the perks, Hey, they were there first, right. They, they, they probably suffered through being one of the only, you know, first ones. So now they, they’ve benefited from a bigger name coming in above them. So like you said, it’s a tangible thing that people are walking through now. Yes. So how long, what’s the timeframe when you and your buddy realized there was an opening and an opportunity from when it was actually a physical open, um, facility or what does it call, I mean, is it an experience?
Well, from it being open, so it was closed to the public for a while cause they had to build it, the inside. And then, um, there’s this, I encourage everybody who’s listening to go in there, take your kids. It’s an awesome place. But they have this really cool led ribbon that like curves and does a loop and all this craziness. And it was a major challenge to get that built and to ship it in a way that wouldn’t break and then install it. And so.
So are we talking like a led ribbon like you see on the today show? Like in times square that’s like words are, are, are tracing?
Yeah. It’s, it’s programmable. They can have just about any type of words or graphics come across it.
But you’re saying it moves and bends and goes in different directions?
Yeah, it starts in this, in the floor, it goes up and it curves. And then it goes up into the ceiling. Cole, you’ll have to say, I haven’t been in there yet. Yeah, you need to, you need to take a visit. So that took a lot longer, um, than planned to like they had to like engineer how to develop that sort of a thing. So we did the deal, agreed on the deal. We had the sign put up there, building the inside of it. Um, it’s their offices and their pros train there as well. And then there’s a public opening area too. So there was, I want to say between initiating versus having the signup was maybe six months, something like that. Six, eight months, I would say quick and then, but from then to actually be an opening, that may have been another six months, something like that. But we had a grand opening there. Super cool. It is, it’s literally the best training facility for eSports in the world. So for that to be right here, like, I mean, people can go in and experience it. Um, it’s really impressive.
I’ll say. Wow. It shouldn’t surprise me because it’s a Jerry Jones project. So that’s kinda how he rolls. He’s gonna build the best thing that can be built at that time. Right? That’s what’s to be expected when you’re talking, when you’re working with Jerry Jones.
You’re right. And so in addition to that, uh, we did, uh, deals with team envy, which is based here in Dallas. They own the Dallas fuel, they have the Dallas empire teams, they’ve got a number of other, um, global teams as well. And we did deals with, uh, infinite eSports entertainment, which is no longer, but at the time they owned optic gaming and the Houston Outlaws. And then we also did deal with Metro arena, which is an online tournament platform. The goal there was to help enable and fund the grassroots level of competitive gaming by funding price bowls and games up, kind of getting credit for that from the community.
And so many levels, right? There’s like, that’s very grassroots.
Big time.
Yeah. But then you’re also probably working on the higher level stuff. We think about like TV deals when we hear about NFL and MLB and NHL, all the big, big money that’s in sports is all really funnels through the TV deals. I mean, I don’t, I don’t think eSports is dealing with TV deals in that nature, but it’s all more streaming. Or is this like, is this where YouTube comes in and the streaming companies that you’re dealing doing those big, when we’re talking like the biggest deals, is that what it is is like streaming and digital deals?
Well, so you’re exactly right that um, traditional sports have media rights deals and eSports does not. Okay. And that’s, that’s a big challenge. This is one of the reasons when things that eSports trade association with [inaudible] I’m the president of is, you know, is seeking to help, um, with these things. But monetization is a big challenge in eSports? Uh, currently the number one source of revenue is sponsorships and a lot of, uh, non-endemic sponsors are having a tough time generating a financial ROI from their sponsorships. It’s hard to track, it’s hard to track. Um, it’s also what are your goals? You know, it’s more of a brand marketing play and it’s a longer term. So I tell people eSports is, it’s a great opportunity for investment sponsorship, but it’s a great longterm opportunity and it’s a better opportunity, uh, for global teams or I, sorry, global brands.Cause eSports is very global and actually the majority is international. Um, what we have seen is that Overwatch league in call of duty league have have local franchises. So eSports has not typically been tied geographically and so it’s actually grown the opposite way of traditional sports. So traditional sports, you and I started a game, let’s say it’s baseball home teams, national domestic, global, right? eSports, uh, initiated in Korea, South Korea. And then it grew but it grew online. And so you have a number of these tournaments that, but they were in, they were not determined by home teams. They’re determined by either what’s convenient or where the community is venue or something exact. So much where the players are. Exactly. And so fascinating. Yeah. So Overwatch league, uh, which this is their third year. I want to talk more about that. Yeah. They actually, um, started doing franchises and so they have 20 global franchises.There’s um, 11 in the U S there’s two in Canada and the remaining are in Europe and Asia. And then call of duty league started this year. They’re both owned by the same publisher. Activision blizzard. Okay. Um, and so in the eSports world, a big difference between traditional sports and eSports is that the, the publishers own the IP, the intellectual property of the game. So the NFL owns the IP of the NFL and the word Superbowl and things like that. That’s why you see like big game celebrations. We all know that, but they don’t own football. That’s why there can be an XFL and these other leagues that have kind of popped up, you can’t have a call of duty league unless Activision blizzard lets you do it because you’re using their IP, it’s their IP. And so that’s a, that’s a major X factor and the whole thing.
But that’s why you say it’s a franchise model, is that, yeah. What’s the name of the parent company?
Activision blizzard.
Activision Blizzard says, okay, we’ll grant you the rights to have your team within our league. That’s the call of duty league, right? Yeah. So, but then the, the are these owners in each franchise that are building a team and then multiple teams of people. So they’re recruiting. players.
So the way that it’s working is you have for Overwatch league and call of duty league specifically, they have the same ownership. So they um, they both started with, well let’s do Overwatch league cause that’s more simple. Okay. So your one, they said we want 12 teams, we’re selling franchises for $20 million. Okay. And I remember some people have told me before, you know, they said, John, why would anybody buy any sports team for $20 million? It’s like, well look up the lowest cost of any traditional sports franchise. And that’s about 14% of the flash sale for exactly. So if this is the future, it’s pennies on the dollar for investors. And this is what they’re always looking for. Right. To be ahead of the trends and you know.
Yeah. Are there, oh I’m interrupting you. But come back to it then if I need to. But I’m curious, are there traditional sports owners that are buying into the eSports model?
Surely.
Anybody I’d know?
Yeah. So Overwatch league, so, um, the, if I’m just going off the top of my memory here, but the US based teams, there’s the San Francisco team, San Francisco shock. They win the championship last year. Andy Miller owns, um, an organization called NRG, which is an eSports organization. Esports organizations are structured like college athletics. So let’s say UNT has a football team, a baseball team of basketball team, right. And RG has an Overwatch league team, a call of duty league team, et cetera. Right. And there’s players don’t play more than one game. They play that game. They’re focused on, they’re exactly right. So going back to your question of traditional sports ownership, Andy Miller is part owner of the Sacramento Kings. Um, in fact, NRG has a number of professional athletes who are invested. So like Alex Rodriguez is invested. Um, I think Jennifer Lopez is invested. Um, Marshawn Lynch, I believe, Shaq, I believe. Um, Robert Kraft, he’s known for having one of every type of team. He owns the Boston uprising, which is the Overwatch league team in Boston. Uh, the floor, the Miami team, uh, Florida mayhem, which I was going to be there this weekend, but it’s canceled. Um, their ownership group is part of the Miami heat.
Okay. So, so they’re getting on board. These are people, like you said, when the regular everyday guy says, why would I invest this? You don’t, those guys aren’t asking that question. They understand it because they already have the traditional investment model. And so this to them is just sort of a lower risk option. Like you said, if this is the future they’re getting in on the ground floor of building these companies that are going to have teams and leagues under their umbrella and they can set up the infrastructure probably fairly easily.
And they have a unique perspective. So the reason why, so it’s been about four years now, since in the US eSports really blew up, right? Only for, gosh, it seems more, but yeah. Yeah. Really blew up. Yeah. I mean there’s over over the last few years, you know, it’s, it’s gained steam, but there there’s a massive like spike, right? So the reasons was brands for advertising are saying, how do we get in front of young people? Well, they’re not watching traditional TV anymore and they’re not going to traditional sporting events. They’re all playing video games. Yeah. And so, you know, these pros owners, they also have a unique perspective. My son is in here and he is having a wonderful time. So if you hear him, that’s Johnny. Um, so these traditional sports centers, they’re seeing attendance decline, right? And they’re also saying, how can I get young people to be fans of my team, fans of the league that we play in, etc.So it’s, it’s the same question from two major parties that are also connected, right? Sponsors and team. And so everybody’s playing video games. I always say eSports has made gaming sponsorable because if you look at the eSports is a microcosm of video games as a whole.
Gaming itself is kind of like you said, going back to one retail purchase and then you kind of not lose your customer. But if it was just the gaming, you wouldn’t have as much access to an audience. The other things sports made that part happen.
Well that’s part of it. The other part of it is most video games are not competitive. And in fact some of the biggest games in the world, but two years ago, red dead redemption two was um, call of duty, kind of the biggest seller every year, kind of on average. And so red dead redemption two was right up there with it. And it’s, it’s a game where you’re in a Western countryside riding around, you know? Exactly. So how does a brand outside of the release of the game interact in this thing that millions would be for playing? Well, eSports has sponsorable assets that brands look at that and they say, Oh, I’ve got events, I’ve got leagues, I’ve got teams, I’ve got content, et cetera. I recognize those things now. The biggest difference, however, which is what I’ve been able to communicate to people and I’ve been able to learn. It’s kind of what’s shot me off in my career, is being able to communicate how you engage this audience because it’s very different from, uh, from traditional sports. In fact, I call it a healthy skepticism. And it’s funny because, because I come from the skateboarding world, which we, skateboarders don’t want anybody in her space, and it’s actually unhealthy skepticism in skateboarding. It’s like we’d rather be poor. We want to be hated on, we want the store itself. We’re kind of cultural, get outta here. You don’t belong here. You’re not one of us.
Keep it your thing. Keep it naturally skateboarding.
Yeah. Right. And it has stunted the growth of the skateboard industry as a result for better, for worse, if you want to keep it pure, it’s for better. If you want it to grow, it’d be for worse. Right. But gamers, I think they have a great balance. It’s, it’s called, I call it a healthy skepticism because they’re skeptical of brands from outside the space who want to come in. Cause it’s kind of like where were you when I wasn’t cool, sort of a thing. But if they activate in a way that adds value to the community and there’s a number of ways to do that, um, then they embrace it and they champion them like nothing else. And so I always use the example, um, you’ve probably been to a Dallas Cowboys game, I’m sure. And so they have an Albertson’s blimp that flies around in there, right? Yeah. And you know, I’ve been up there and I’m seeing that, and you see that initially, Oh, that’s kind of fun. You’re not like, what? Right. Does Albertson’s, what are they doing here? They have nothing to do with football, right? No, you’re just, you’re just like, Oh cool. Albertson’s. Oh that blimps kind of fun. But in gaming it’s like, hold on, you’re not part of us. What are you doing? And so there’s a number of ways to add value, whether it’s, you know, I always tell brands if you want to be in these sports, it needs the experience. Whether as a fan, as competing, unique experiences or content need to be better as a result of your Ben being part of it. You can’t just hit your wagon to it and then like you’re gaining awareness because of your logo. You’re going to get blacklisted and this is a very digitally savvy vocal audience that is going to let you know. Yeah, but if you do it the right way, if, if I go to an event and I now have an opportunity or experience that I wouldn’t have had otherwise because of your brand now, no, I’m excited about your brand and I’m thankful and I champion and the brands who do it right are very glad that they’ve sponsored and invested in any sports.
They’re kind of org or you know, authentically merging in with it because like you said, they’re probably territorial, like the gaming communities, territorial, they’re protecting what they’ve built and they don’t want outsiders coming in and trying to change it or I don’t know not be authentic and with their audience. So, okay. So we, I want to clear up kind of things like gamers versus streamers and how they’re both kind of being successful right now. So I mean, when I think of gamers, I do think of the people that are playing the game and other people are watching them. But are, we are gamers and streamers, totally different segments. Any sports where they’re gamers are competing and streamers aren’t.
It’s a little bit different, but similar to what you’re saying. Okay. So, uh, what you’re, I think what you’re trying to say is that pro gamers and streamers are different. Okay. So streamers, they’re all gaming. They’re all playing video games, right? So, um, but streamers and pros are two different types of people. And so, um, streamers can be playing competitive games like fortnight or, you know, a lot of eSports titles are, are popular. And so, you know, people want to watch these guys to the best in the world. You’re, they’re entertaining personalities here. Also learning based on what you see them do and how they’re doing it, etc. And some pros stream, but not all streamers compete. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so, you know, you have some pros, you know, a big part of streaming, it’s entertainment is what it comes down to. And so you have some pros who, it’s the same thing, traditional sports, they just don’t have engaging personalities. They’re introverts. And so you’re not going to have an entertaining stream, but you can be really good. But you could be really good. Right. And then what we’re seeing on the streaming side of it, which is really interesting, so you do have streamers who compete. Like you’ll have the, like the Fortnite world cup Ninja, who’s kind of the best, well, best known guy. He competed in that he lost money taking time off streaming by competing.
Cause does he win, when he like, he might not be the best, I mean, whether it’s him or somebody else, the best streamers might not be the best players.
You’re exactly right. So it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s very, uh, it’s a tough decision because it’s like, I, you know, competing, everybody wanted to see an as you compete because he is one of the best players, right? But he’s not the best in the world and wasn’t on that day. So the, the competition kind of validates. It can validate some people don’t need it. Some do, it depends on their personal brand
and his fans might not care. Right? Right. If he wins a certain tournament or whatever you would think, but he’s not getting the payout. So you’re saying him not getting the payout of winning that tournament could make him less income than if he was just streaming like he was?
Well, he lost money because he like, people unsubscribe when he doesn’t regularly. I mean, streaming is a grind to keep producing content that demand for consistent content is brutal and they’re streaming for hours and hours and hours. So that’s one of the major challenges. And even things when it comes to, uh, training and practicing, uh, one of the biggest reasons for people, uh, ending their pro careers is burnout. And a lot of it is that the way people have trained historically is they’re playing video games for 14 hours every single day. And there’s a number of things. Number one, you get tired of, you get tired of it over time. Um, you know, we, we know in the professional world, just sitting at a desk is not great for you, right? So in the same way, sitting at a desk when a video game is also not great for you. Right. And while it’s not as physical as you know, football or a contact sport, anything you do that’s repetitive with your body wears down, right? Especially if you’re not doing it in the right with the right form. And so that’s why we see injuries develop and things like that. But you know, I have, I have friends who are strength physical strength coaches who are focused on eSports. A good friend of mine, uh, he used to be a strength and training coach for the San Francisco 49ers football team and now he’s helping out pro gamers. Wow. Because it’s a number of things. Number one, it’s, Hey, yeah, you do need to practice a lot, but that doesn’t just running or I mean playing 14 hours like marathon runners. Yeah, they got to run a lot, but they don’t just run all day every day.
Do you do other things? Making sure your body is tuned up. Right, right. And there’s other things. It’s everything from your nutrition, your sleep [inaudible]
There’s a, there’s a mind and a body component there. So not only when, when you’re physically fit, your mind is working well. I’m also, a lot of eSports has to do with confidence and the way you feel. And if you look good, you feel good, you’re confident to perform well. That makes sense. Another thing, um, it’s a little bit more cosmetic is these guys are become popular. They’re global superstars now. They want to look good as well. And especially like you see the [inaudible]
People are staring at their face on a screen in some capacity. If they’re streamers, they’re being stared at for all those hours in a row up close.
Yeah.
And if they’re competing, they end up on a big screen in front of an arena of people. Right?
Yeah. So there’s a number of different motivations for it. But um, yeah, the streaming and, and eSports. And then there’s a spa that is sponsorship considerations. So when you’re thinking about how do I want a sponsor, well shoot you can do a league sponsorship. You could sponsor a team. So it to compare with what I did at GameStop to the full strategy there. So what, who I didn’t mention who I don’t want to leave out is collegiate star league. They do more, uh, college tournaments than anybody in, in the US um, and they’re great. So everybody on a college campuses at gamers who want to engage those youth who are, they’re making their, their own buying choices for the first time. You creating loyalty with brands. Sure. So you could sponsor a league and we wanted to hit it from all these facets. So league, we did, um, collegiate star league and we did watch parties for Overwatch league teams. So it was league level, team level. We wanted to balance local and national. So my, my, uh, my area if you will, was not global. It was just the US at GameStop. And so, um, when I, I S I always say eSports makes gaming sponsorable but Overwatch league has made it sponsorable for local brands. Okay. Because what’s cool, here’s a good example. The Houston Outlaws, they have a sponsorship with HEB, the grocery outlet, right. And everybody loves HEB, right? Well HEB would not have a play in eSports if it wasn’t for local franchises cause there are local, yeah,
they don’t rent other markets. North of central Texas have no clue who they are. And they don’t need to spend money in markets North of central.
Exactly. So they were able to sponsor the Outlaws and it’s, and it’s a great partnership for both sides, from what I know. And so we did, uh, with the teams, Overwatch league team, so envy and um, infinite had so, uh, envy had fuel and then their bigger Counterstrike, I can’t remember all the games that they play. And then optic, um, had or infinite own optic, which had call of duty and they had gears of war at the time. And then they owned the Houston Atlas, which was a local. And then we did the very grassroots, uh, Metro arena, which was really funding the grassroots, what we, and then we also sponsored, uh, towards the end of my time there, Justin Wong, who is a player. So you could do an individual player sponsorship. Um, and what we didn’t do, um, but people can do is you sponsor a content creator, a streamer.
And so there’s, there’s all these different facets and depends on your brand and your goals as to what you want to do. But I always tell people it’s not, it’s not a quick sales thing. It’s, it’s, um, brand marketing and it’s much more creating loyalty, affinity and positive sentiment with the audience. And sales will follow right in the years following, but when they trust you and they’ve seen you and yeah, it’s all about motivations. They want to know that you are authentically and genuinely here for them first. And then they’ll be there for you, but you can’t fake it because they’ll smell it from a mile away.
Right. So you talked about all these gamers and so me, I’m a parent, obviously you’re a parent too. So a big, a big concern in the parenting world is how, you know, how much do you let your kids play and this and that. Every family has different rules and they should, every kid has, should have different boundaries and limitations and all the healthy ways to do whatever activities they’re doing. Right. Because I think you can just get just as much overkill and over use in an outdoor, traditional sport as you can, being in a room playing video games. So it all needs, uh, limitations and healthy boundaries and balance. Exactly. Yes. Because just as, I don’t want a kid playing five hours of video games every night when they’re under 10, I wouldn’t want them also playing five hours of soccer every night. And that’s all they do all the time. Cause they’ll get hurt over use and injury and things like that. But anyway, so if it’s, if that’s your kid and they’re going to do it anyway and you’ve set your limitations and they’re good, um, you know, what, like what’s your take on it from being inside the industry? What are some tips or advice, like if you’re the parent of the kid who might actually be really good at this and might want to continue doing this, what do you, what do you do? What do you say to them?
Yeah, so there’s a number of things. One is, um, you know, when I was growing up, you could keep your kids from playing video games at all for the right. Uh, the other one when he goes over to his friend’s house or whatever, but what wasn’t a fabric of their social network, of their social experience in school when, you know, I’m 36, so when, um, you know, I was in high school and stuff, it wasn’t, you know, it didn’t have anything to do. You don’t have this skin in the game or you know, you’re not playing this or your status isn’t this, that, you know, it was your clothes and you know, are you on the baseball team or things like that. Right? Um, now I don’t think, you know, kids in junior high school, I don’t think you can keep them from playing video games at all completely. And I think, I don’t think you would want to because it’s such a part of the identity and everybody’s doing it and you know, you could be enabling your child to be bullied or an outcast. That wouldn’t be your goal. But that would be the result because it’s such an important integral part of young people’s lives. Right? So when you look at that, you say, okay, what are the positives? Because you know, as parents, we want to keep our children safe first and foremost, but oftentimes we fear what we don’t understand. Right? So, um, understanding number one, what are some of the games that are okay to play? Are there some games you don’t want your kids,
right? Right. There’s appropriate levels of within each game you have to, you have to investigate that a little bit. Sure. As a parent, you need to know what they’re playing. That’s exactly right. 100%. That’s first step. 100% before the boundaries are set. You gotta regulate it. Just like any movies, you’re going to let them watch. You’re not going to put them in front of a TV screen watching right at our movies until they’re old enough to be able to handle that.
And screen time with TVs. Same thing with screen time with, with games, right? You don’t want them sitting in front of the screen all the time. Um, but there are a number of skills that, uh, relate to the real world and can help them both in careers outside of gaming, but also the infrastructure of the game and eSports world has created, uh, career opportunities the same way traditional sports do. So I’ll go into that first and then I’ll talk about the benefits. But the cool thing about if you are a big football fan, you can work a number of different types of jobs or careers and work for a football team or the NFL, right? You could do a HR, you could be in partnerships or marketing media and media. You could be a strength and training coach. You can be a graphic designer. Broadcaster.
[inaudible] Yeah, I mean there’s, it’s every type of, well not every, lots of types of career options can still stem around that sport. Sure.
100% so in the same, so people who, you know, what .3% of the population go pro in something, I think it is something like that. And so you can, what’s super cool about young people who are passionate about gaming and eSports is they can pursue that passion without having to be a pro. And even if you are a pro, you continue to work in that industry as a result. So that’s super cool. Number one is for parents to know this is not a complete waste of your kid’s time. What he’s becoming passionate about. He can still, you know, when he gets older, get into marketing, get into business, get into graphic design, et cetera. And you know, he’s able to have a, because he understands the community and he’s part of it, right? Yeah. And around that, that part’s not a waste. Now there’s also benefits and there’s, uh, there’s things outside of, um, eSports and gaming that they can take advantage of. So, um, I was meeting with a gentleman from the Marines yesterday and he’s helping to craft, uh, the Marines sponsorship and partnership approach to eSports. Right. So we’re just sharing some insights there. And one thing is when it comes to pilots, um, there’s a lot of skills that translate from, uh, using a controller, the hand eye coordination, being able to work across multiple monitors and screens. You think of the simulation process, that’s how they train. Exactly. Be a real life pilot. It’s simulators. Exactly. Right. And you see, you know, drones, you know, a lot of, you know, warfare is now drone warfare. And so, um, I do know that, um, our military is short on pilots and things of that nature. And so to, you know, to have young people to say, look, you guys have the skill set in it. It’s a developed skill set, you know, have a career opportunity in the military, which you can also know, create educational opportunities for you as well with those incentives. Right. Yeah. The other thing too, um, I was talking to a gentlemen, uh, with [inaudible], Patrick Klein, uh, they do a great job of connecting young people, uh, with, with opportunities and new sports and doing that sort of a thing. And he shared a stat with me that I’d never heard before. Um, so eSports clubs have been developing in college, now they’re developing in high school. What he told me is that 80% of kids who are in these high school clubs, eSports clubs, 80% or more, it’s their first extra curricular activity. And when we think about all the benefits to extracurricular activities being part of a team, uh, per perseverance of winning and losing comradery, friendship, right? I mean, you could, you could save a life for a kid who makes a friend who otherwise wouldn’t have, wouldn’t have and went deep into depression. Yeah. Right. Accountability.
If there’s a club, I’m expecting you to be an in attendance a certain day after school or whatever it is. Just being accountable with a peer group isn’t important.
Right. And you see kids oftentimes are doing better in school. If they’re, they’re engaged with the thing they want to go to school cause they have that friend, they’ve got the eSports club, they’re now, you know, incentivize, do better with their classes, then look forward to maybe. Exactly. Yeah. And so, um, there’s a lot of benefits there. There’s, there’s STEM applications from that’s usually the most immediately made it application, um, with eSports. And, um, there’s, there’s just so many different facets of, you know, there’s the technical part of it. There’s the game development part of it. Um, there’s a lot of stuff with computers, um, that that’s obviously it’s the current, but it’s also even more so the future of careers. And so if you can have kids are familiar with, um, robotics, who are familiar with technology, who are comfortable with it, um, I didn’t even go down that road.
Even when you go beyond that, all of the hands on stuff. I mean, I bet you there’s, there’s lawyers who specialize in contracts and sponsorships that you probably deal with and work with. And there’s, I mean, you mentioned the health and sports science side of it, so it’s even beyond people that are, you know, hands on touching the sport. But just the business structure of it. And I know you talk about that too, is the importance of an underlying knowledge of business. So it’s not like these kids should just, if they are going to be the player, maybe even if that’s there, like you said, that’s the smallest probably opportunity for you to actually be the player. But no matter what your, um, interest, you know, piece of it is, um, you agree that it’s super important to have a business background so that you’re not just a talent piece of all of this, your business happening around you. Right?
Yeah. In fact, uh, you know, in my skateboarding career, I, um, you know, I was able to go, um, you know, I had a certain level of success, uh, based on my abilities on the board and that probably, uh, when a little further due to my understanding of sponsorship and things of that nature, but I’ve had some unique experiences. Skating Rob Dyrdek’s fantasy factory skating, uh, courses, uh, for street league skateboarding that only the 20 best scares in the world, skate, uh, being featured on the barracks, the world’s most visited skateboarding website. I’ve done these things because of my business career, um, much where I if it was only regarding my talent on the board, I would’ve never had those opportunities. You wouldn’t have right. Missed them. And so in the same way, when young people, let’s say, who have a passion eSports or gaming, if, if they have a background in business, they’re going to have more opportunities to do what they’re passionate about. The other thing I always put it pretty plainly is a background in business enables you to understand how to make money doing what you love or understanding that what you love doesn’t make any money. So don’t do it for a hobby, not for a job. Right? That’s an important distinction. And I’ve given this example before to where I was in, um, a local flower shop randomly a year or two ago and it really hit me cause I was, I was there with my mom and we were, we were looking at a different flower. She wanted to put in her garden and the person was taking us around and knew everything there was about flowers. I don’t know a thing about flowers, but this person did. And it struck me that if all that person, if that person doesn’t know business, if they don’t know marketing the supply chain, how are they sourcing those, um, the tax side of it, you know, the whole financial side of it. You are, you do you have the best POS system that you need and all the capabilities there, et cetera. You could be the most knowledgeable, knowledgeable person about flowers and you’re going to go out of business, there’s going to talk about flowers all day. Exactly. Can I know or find you or you know, you can’t. It goes back to monetizing a hundred percent running the business part. Right. And so you, you know, it’s great to partner those people. But um, yeah, that doesn’t mean that you need to, you know, I don’t think college is for everybody. I had a, I would Sacramento State University. I got a tremendous education. I’m so glad I went. I thought I was going to get my piece of paper and get my ticket to the world. I learned so much. I do know in graphic design and some of these other things, college is not necessarily necessary, but what I would say is regardless of your background being, getting a marketing or a business degree or whether it’s interning or just being mentored on the business side of something, at least fill out that side of your skillset and your understanding so that you’re seeing both sides because it’s going to be a huge benefit to you.
Yeah, that’s great advice. Learn it right. Learn it so that you can get the most out of the passion, that the part that you’re passionate about. Fantastic. Well, thank you for the peek behind the curtain of sports. There’s so much more I know to learn. I feel like we just scratched the surface yet again. Um, and it’s still growing and there’s so much momentum and eSports. Um, so I’ll always be trying to catch up and learn more and more, but thank you for joining us today and giving us some insight.
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Thanks everyone for listening. So subscribe if you haven’t already and we’ll see you next time on Hustle and Pro.
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From Knee Surgery to the Naval Academy