Opening Up About Racism in Sports
Opening Up About Racism in Sports
There’s a movement happening right now that’s opened our eyes and made us listen well. Frisco is our home. And, because it’s also home to our Major League Soccer team, FC Dallas, it hits home seeing the posts, reading the stories, and watching the videos of players and coaches talking about how to heal the racial divide.
In this episode, we talk with our guest, Tony Graham, about racism in sports. We talk about the FC Dallas Candid Conversations video, and how each and every story can – and should – have an impact on how to move forward and be better teammates, fans, neighbors, and humans.
Enjoy this chat and listen to other episodes of Hustle & Pro.
- [01:06] Intro to Tony Graham
- [4:18] FCD’s Candid Conversations Video
- [5:34] Reggie Cannon‘s Comments; Black Players Coalition of MLS; #Athletes4BLM
- [8:00] Bridging the Gap
- [13:00] Fafa Picault‘s Comments
- [15:50] Tony’s Experiences
- [21:00] Luchi Gonzalez‘s Comments
- [23:30] Tony on coaching responsibility
- [27:50] Joli Robinson’s Comment
Resources within this episode:
- FC Dallas Website | Instagram | Twitter | Facebook
- Candid Conversations Video
- FC Dallas Youth Website
- Tony Graham: FB @tony.graham.7127 | IG @tgraham76
- VOYCEnow Foundation: @voycenow
- Kelly Walker: Instagram @kelly_walkertexas | Twitter: @kelly_walker_TX
Connect with Lifestyle Frisco:
Welcome to Hustle and Pro season two, talking sports in Frisco from youth to pro. Now here’s your host Kelly Walker.
Thanks for joining us. As we record this episode of Hustle and Pro the MLS is back tournament starts today and our very own FC Dallas withdrew from the tournament. That’s a whole nother conversation for a whole nother day, but also our Dallas Mavericks are headed to the NBA level in Orlando too. So it’s an unusual time for sports to say the very least, but something else is happening besides this coronavirus pandemic that is changing the landscape of sports. Right now, there is a movement happening racism and racism in sports is not a new conversation, but the conversation to bring it up and to keep it up and to talk about it and have people listen and learn is new. So my eyes personally have been opened recently. I’ve learned more than I ever knew that I didn’t even know about racism in sports. And so that’s what we’re going to talk about today. So let’s get started expanding on that with our guest Tony Graham. Thanks for showing up Tony. Hi.
Yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you.
So I know you through sports, right, but I want to stop talking for a second and give you the floor to tell us about you and introduce yourself to us.
Yeah. So thank you. Um, uh, like she said, I’m Tony Graham. I, uh, gosh, I’ve been involved in youth sports for, gosh, I guess over about 22 years now. So, uh, coach soccer for FC Dallas, uh, currently coaching 2011, 2010, 2009 and 2008 boys. So, uh, I stay pretty busy on the soccer fields and then also have, uh, three kids of my own. So, uh, when I’m not, uh, on the soccer fields, I’m chasing them around too. So it’s a pretty busy life, but it’s a, it’s fine athlete, kids of yours. They are, uh, two of them are, uh, uh, 2010, uh, son and a 2009 both play for FC Dallas. So I get to coach them both for now. I know that that won’t last forever, but, uh, definitely enjoy coaching them. And, uh, they’re good players they’re excelling and, uh, doing quite well. So yeah, happy dad.
Awesome. I mentioned that I really only know you through sports. So the few conversations I’ve ever had with you have probably just been about soccer, right? Either on the soccer field related to my husband or added FC Dallas games saying hi, or talking about the game or something like that. Uh, so you grew up here in Plano, right?
Yeah. I grew up in Plano, um, uh, went through all Plano schools, uh, middle school and high school and played soccer for Plano East. And so, yeah, I’m a, I’m a local
Plano East, I think. So that means you played against my husband. Well, I told him you were meeting me here today and of course he said, tell him this and remind him this. I’m like, okay, we don’t need to talk about high school soccer. And I think you’ve played with him also, right. We, uh, we played on, uh,
North Dallas, 40 men’s outdoor team, uh, uh, got a chance to play with him and a couple other guys that, uh, you knew back from the Plano East Plano senior high day. So it was quite fun playing on that team. So,
Yeah, there’s a strange underground, uh, I not to offend you, but old man soccer group of guys here that have stuck around this area and continued to be in and around soccer, right?
Yeah, it is. It’s really, really cool. Um, you know, getting to play with those guys, uh, remembering them back during the high school days, but then being on like men’s teams with them playing with them, playing against them, uh, soccer community is a small world. And so, um, um, it’s, it’s pretty cool, but uh, definitely enjoyed seeing, uh, your husband out at the fields, you know, through the youth soccer stuff. Just kind of remind him, reminding us back of our times when we were, you know, that youthful and running around and still trying to do it to this day. So yeah, it’s pretty cool.
So this will be a different conversation for us. We’ll still talk about sports, but it’s, it’s hard for me. Um, you know, I don’t talk about race and racism every day, so this is tough for me, but that’s why I invited a friend in here. So talk to me, talk with me and help me through it. So what sparked this, um, was an FC Dallas video I saw recently, well, it’s been a lot, it’s been some FC Dallas players being vocal after, um, the George Floyd killing in may that some of them have really stepped up and spoken up and not in even a huge way, just small personal accounts and different things. And then recently I saw FC Dallas put out a video conversation or candid conversations. Um, I think it was healing racism in sports, something like that. Right. And that’s kind of my jumping off point where I just, I wanted to get it all out there. Things I was learning, watching that video with a link to that video in the podcast post so that you guys listening can, um, go watch it for sure. It’s something great to, to go watch. So that was Luci Gonzalez. Who’s the head coach of, of FC Dallas. Um, and it was players, um, Reggie Cannon, who you guys know that I love, I’ve talked about him on the show a lot, Jimmy Mauer and Fafa Pico. I picked, I don’t know how to say his last name. I need to learn cause.
It’s kind of a silent, uh, L in there.
Yes. When I get him on this podcast, we’ll, I’ll clarify that with him. I’ll make him say it for me. So I learn it. Um, and then the other person on the video was Jolie Robinson. So she is with the Dallas police department. She’s the community affairs manager. So she mostly listened. Um, but even like, let’s just start with kind of Reggie. Um, Reggie has always been a good role model and, um, but I learned things from him, listening to him talk. Um, he recently was married. I think during this pandemic shutdown, he, I think was when he got married. I remember seeing like drive by congratulations from his teammates and stuff, but he is in a biracial marriage. So his wife is from Burleson. And so hearing him talk about some of the slight things that they would, you know, glares, walking into an Academy, holding hands as a black man and a white woman, things like that. Um, seeing the Confederate flag, a lot of places and making him uncomfortable. And, um, she’s probably a lot like me growing up in a small town in Texas, you didn’t really think about those things. Um, but then once it became personal to her and it was directly, she started feeling it right. It was directly impacting her life. Um, and so now she’s feels the frustration. Um, she feels the dirty looks and it’s, he said that it’s been difficult, um, may the difficult spot for them to be in, but he sees it as a good signal for change. And I’m noticing those micro interactions, but recognizing it as an opportunity to make a positive impact. Right. And, and telling people about those things. So as I go through some of these accounts, if any of those ring true to you, you know, let me know if you feel some of those things. Um, so Reggie has recently, so it’s, it’s one thing to just kinda tell people, Oh, you know, I’ve had racism happen to me here and there, but he’s one of those players that, um, is taking quite a bit of action. So even just recently, um, let’s see Juneteenth they, the MLS created the first ever black players coalition of the MLS and it’s in their letter, um, when they created it, they talked about they’re there to bridge the gap by lobbying for a different initiatives. So one of those is imp implicit bias training, cultural education, and diversification in hiring. So I wondered from you, um, your thoughts on those things as a person who’s been hired in the soccer community, even in the FC Dallas system, um, what, what you’ve seen as far as diversification, if we’re doing a decent job of it here in the Frisco area, if we’re not what you think about it.
Sure. Well, I think that it’s fantastic that, uh, uh, Reggie has taken on the personal challenge to do that. Um, I think that, uh, you know, as a community, uh, we can do more. I think that we, we need to do more, but I think that those are definitely good star starting points. When you talk about implicit bias training and those kinds of things, really. Um, for me, what I think, uh, the biggest thing is, uh, kind of how we can kind of bridge some of this systemic racism is, um, if we all kind of get to know each other a little bit more, if, uh, our elected officials that are police officers and things of that nature really, really understand the communities that they’re serving, uh, really, really get involved in the communities that they’re serving. I think, um, that can at least start to turn the page with some of the systemic racism, uh, that’s been going on.
I think what happens is a lot of times is you get these communities and, uh, you get officers for whatever reason that either didn’t grow up in communities or really don’t know the community that they’re serving. And, um, it’s kind of a trust factor there. It’s an insecurity. Um, I don’t really know you, I don’t know your background. I don’t know where you came from. So my guard is completely up where I think is if we kind of act on both sides, absolutely. On both sides. And I think that, uh, there could, the healing process could be accelerated a lot more if we actually had a lot more community involvement on both sides. And I think that when you start seeing the systemic racism and it’s starting to take shape and city to city, to city all across the United States is because really there’s a disconnect. There’s a disconnect between the people that are in the city. And then there’s a disconnect between the elected officials and police officers think if we can kind of bridge that we can at least start, you know, some of the healing in those regards.
For sure. Yeah, I agree. Um, and I think we’ve seen this, this beginning of some of that here, um, with groups trying to have those open conversations and getting to know them, but, and we’ve, I think, um, our first go police has admitted, they want more diversity on the police force. They’ve tried and they need to figure out how to try harder and make that, make the police force look a little bit more like, you know, the people here.
Right. The community that they serve. Absolutely. Yeah. I think the, um, um, you know, it’s been going on for a long time, but I really do think with the, um, the killing of the George Floyd, I think that that really, uh, woke up a lot of people. Um, and a lot of different communities, a lot of people were outraged, uh, that, um, deservedly, so, and, uh, um, are very, very outwardly spoken about it. Um, you see a lot of, uh, you saw a lot of protests that were taking place from city to city and say, I never would have thought something that happened so far away. Uh, we would be having those same kind of protests here in Frisco. And it really, really made me think that, um, you know, as a society, um, hopefully we’re starting to wake up to those kinds of things instead of turning a blind eye, uh, to things that I myself personally, um, have experienced and have been knowing that’s been going on for a very long time.
Yeah. I think turning a blind eye is interesting because, um, you know, I don’t try to not notice things. I just don’t look for things. I don’t have my ears and eyes open as much as I should have before. Another example of that, um, when Reggie was talking, I had no idea. He had a family member that was killed by a police officer. He talks about it in the video and I don’t want to try to recount his personal stuff and get it wrong, but it was shocking and really sad and made me really sad to know that these things they’ve been happening, this is nothing new, which was even more sad that it isn’t something new. And it’s so common that this has happened in, I never even knew a player I’ve followed and reported on for years. I didn’t even know something that major had happened in his family because it was kind of just another, probably another thing that happened in his family that didn’t get any attention or enough attention.
Right. Um, one more thing before we move off from, from notes on what Reggie was talking about, um, he has also, um, been active on social, talking about, um, um, a hashtag called athletes for black lives matter, but it’s athletes the number four, B L M. Um, and he talks about how they play. He plays for equality and justice and, um, we’ll tag it in the notes, but just so everybody knows it’s called voice now foundation, but that’s V O Y C E voyce now foundation. It’s a nonprofit made up of athletes and fans that are out there. I’m really fighting for equality and justice. So everybody go check that out too. So I want to talk about Fafa, he’s one of the first people that kind of made me open my eyes just locally and go, Oh my gosh, this guy has been playing a sport that I know since I was three, right. He’s been playing this sport, his whole life all over the world. And I, you know, you, you see these pro athletes and you think they’ve got a pretty good life right there. They’re playing soccer, they’re making money, they’ve got a good setup. Like this is a cool life. And then you start hearing their personal accounts of the way players, teammates, fans, opposing fans, um, coaches treat them right. And it is, it broke my heart to hear those things. I mean, he talked about moving to Italy when he was 16 and he would split training with the reserve team in a first team. And one of the coaches, um, called him a monkey and told him to go back to the jungle and that he was just here to run. And then he had no skills. So he has to hear that from a leader in his sport, somebody who’s supposed to be guiding him along. Right. And making him better. He, he had to kind of just take it and hear those things and, and get spit on by fans and have things put in his locker and just on and on and on. Right, right. Um, he also talked about, uh, just recently he tweeted a photo, got pulled over third time, three weeks, no speeding tickets. No reason. Thankfully I had my FC Dallas gear on today that might’ve helped me out, blah, blah, blah. And I read the comments and I’m just floored that people are blaming him. Well, you probably were speeding or this or that. And it’s just like, hold on three weeks, three times pulled over and you never got a ticket something’s off. Right. Right. And it just like infuriates me to hear those things. Um, but I’m so glad that he put those things out there. Cause it allows somebody like me to kind of open my eyes and understand that for me, I hop in the car and do whatever I want. I go wherever I want, most of the time, nobody bothers me, but he has a whole routine where he has to think about what he’s put on his body. Is he wearing a hoodie? Is he, does he have on the wrong hat? Like, does he look different than he’s thinking about that every time he drives around, um, things that I just never, you know, never have, have thought about, like where he leaves his wallet when he’s driving so that he doesn’t have to reach in anywhere to get it right. When he’s pulled over. Cause he gets pulled over so much and he talks about how exhausting it is. And that’s just something that hit me hard that, that these athletes are dealing with so much racial injustice on a day to day basis. So you mentioned you’ve been in youth athletes, were you dealing with youth athletes for 22 years and then yourself, a whole lifetime of sports and soccer? Probably other sports too. Right. Um, is there anything that rings true that, you know, to you, when you hear stories like that of coaches or teammates and just people treating you differently?
Yeah. It’s unfortunate. The answer is yes. But, uh, the answer is yes. Um, this is, uh, uh, like I said, not, uh, anything new, um, uh, I think, uh, as a society we’re, we’re finally starting to really, really, truly, uh, open our eyes to it, uh, with the black lives matter movement. And, you know, even that still garners controversy because people want, you know, to hear all lives matter and those kinds of things. And what people are simply saying is, we’re not saying all lives don’t matter. We’re just saying black lives matter, you know? Um, and, uh, uh, but for myself personally, um, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had some of those same similar experiences, you know, growing up in Plano, I can remember vividly. I mean, this is, you know, 43 years old now and still can remember these, these accounts just like they were yesterday. But, uh, driving back from playing, um, basketball with some buddies of mine at a local local rec, well, we just finished playing basketball and, uh, there’s about four of us in my car. I was driving, we all had our shirts off because we were, um, we were, uh, you know, just getting off the basketball courts. And literally as soon as we pulled out of the parking lot, got pulled over, uh, we’re all told to get out of the car and were harassed for probably about the next 30 minutes, because we looked suspicious and because there was a report of a Burghley burglary, um, uh, somewhere in the area, this was like on a Saturday at like two o’clock in the afternoon. Um, and I was young then, so I was, I was pretty shaken up by then. Um, and, um, you know, it was, it was unfortunate because we were kids and we were scared. Um, you know, you fast forward to my adult life. I remember, uh, um, driving back, this is a little later at night, I was leaving, um, a restaurant, uh, had just bought a new car, uh, that I’ve worked very, very hard for, uh, bought a Mercedes. And I just did not look like I should be driving a Mercedes S550 and, uh, pulled out of the restaurant, um, and was immediately pulled over and, uh, was questioned for about 15, 20 minutes. Where did I get this car? Um, do I have, um, you know, do I have any registration on it? Let me see the tags. It was explaining to them that, uh, just bought the car a day ago. So it still had the paper tags on it. He thought it was stolen. And, uh, when I explained to him, I’m a business owner in this community, you know, this is, this is profiling.
And after he went through about 20 minutes of harassing me, uh, and realize that, you know, Hey, I was clean, I didn’t have anything wrong. He has his, his total disposition towards me changed, but it’s just that moment where, um, because of the color of my skin and because of what I was driving, it had to have been stolen. Something is wrong with this picture, the pre-judgment right. And, um, you know, those, you know, those are own personal stories, but these are things that happened all across our cities every single day. And just like how you were talking, um, about, you know, Reggie, I’m not the [inaudible], it’s kind of something that we have, um, just accepted almost as the norm. And that’s got to change because, you know, people, people are dying.
Yup. And even when they’re not dying, it’s not right to be just on a daily basis treated unfairly for no, I mean, there is no reason I don’t. Yes, you’re right. No one should, it should never get to the extreme of, of people dying, but there’s just, there’s so many layers of it.
There is, there’s a lot of layers of it. And, uh, you know, you say you, when you get in your car, um, every day you just get in and you go and you don’t have to worry about anything if, uh, I’m driving and God forbid it’s at night and I get pulled over, uh, that whole process is, is, is completely different. I now have to start worrying about, you know, movements that I make and what I say and what, what, uh, is going to be perceived from this, from this particular officer things that most people and certainly, um, uh, uh, other races would not have to worry about, uh, if it wasn’t for the color of their skin. So, uh, very, very, very, very difficult to, uh, go through situations like that. But, uh, we know, uh, as, as, as black people, that, that is a very, very real thing. And, um, you know, one bad move or anything that just looks, uh, out of the ordinary, um, you know, could, could.
I have to be out of the ordinary. It just could look, it could look out of the ordinary, right. And could cause some serious issues and, you know, for misunderstandings. And it goes back to, like I said, that community, that community involvement and knowing your surroundings and that kind of thing. Yeah.
Wow. All right. Let’s get one more perspective too. Um, so the head coach of FC Dallas, Lucci Gonzales, who I love Lucci, I think he’s so great. I think he talks to the media and I listen a lot and I just, I really appreciate the passion he has behind everything he says and cares about. And it goes way beyond just the sport of soccer. He cares about these guys and his, you know, his system and his family of people. But he opened up in the candid conversations video, um, about being married to a black woman. Um, and the subtleties that are still a reflection of racism and judgment. He said it was it’s sad and it’s disappointing. And it, it causes hurt, um, within the community. And that’s another thing I didn’t, didn’t realize till I started listening a little bit more. Um, he talked about once, um, before he was married to her, uh, he had perceived trust with a teammate.
Then they go on to make comments about her when they see her standing over on the sidelines or this or that, and, you know, comment, racial comments about her, um, that just, you know, they hurt, they hurt him, they hurt her. And these are his teammates guys that he relies on and that he trusts on a day to day basis. And, you know, that’s his soccer family and they break that trust and, um, how much that hurt. Um, but as a coach, he talks about how, um, sports is, is a great example of the picture of what diversity can be, which is a hopeful thing, right? Where it is diverse. It should be, everyone should get the chance to play whatever sport they love and Excel at. Right. No matter what they look like or background that they come from. Um, and not only should they get the chance to play, they should get the chance to be treated correctly as they play. Right. So I like that. He said that, and he talked as a coach’s perspective, which I’m curious from yours too. Um, he says, I have the responsibility to be more vocal and to be very clear that you must respect all or you don’t. Um, so it’s under his watch. It’s not okay to show slight subtleties and disrespect to one person of a race or nationality. He’s dealing with a melting pot of different types of people on the first team. Um, and you know, I don’t know what your cultural makeup looks like of your, for youth teams that you coach, but, but from your perspective and experience leading young, are they all boys, they are leading young men on the soccer field. Like what responsibility do you feel and how much have you noticed or seen that you have to step in and do anything about.
Right. That’s fair. Well, um, uh, just to kind of, um, take it back just a little bit. I, myself was also in a biracial marriage and my, and my kids are biracial. So, uh, I have it, uh, in the forefront with being, um, you know, being that it’s, it’s involved with my own kids, but yeah. Yeah. So as, um, uh, as a coach, we, we have an awesome responsibility to make sure that, uh, uh, we’re spreading a message of, uh, inclusiveness that everybody that’s out on the field, um, uh, we’re a family, we’re a team and we do things collectively. There’s no one person greater than another, certainly there’s no one person greater than another based on their skin color. So, um, it’s an awesome message that we as coaches have to, uh, make sure that we are sharing with our teams. And I think, um, you know, for me personally, the way I go about doing it is using my, my own kids as an example, um, they don’t get any special privileges just because, you know, on their, uh, on their father. And I’m also their coach. Uh, if anything, it’s quite the opposite, you know, they have to, you know, work hard and they have to show, uh, leadership to the others. And I think by doing that, um, that shows everybody within my soccer teams that, Hey, coach treats us all equal. Um, everybody’s on an equal level playing field. Uh, he doesn’t see color. He doesn’t see anything other than just abilities and, and work ethic. And I think if we all have that same mindset, um, it least we can save the next generations coming up that witnessed that, uh, from people that they respect and adore, that that can hopefully change some of the narrative that we have going around, because it hasn’t always been that way in the past. But as leaders, as trusted leaders and people that look up to us, if we can start making our footprint by, um, sharing the message of equality, uh, that, uh, black lives matter, but all lives matter, everything that’s involved doing it through the youth sports. I think that that could really also be something that can help kind of, you know, change the systemic racism that we have going on right now.
It has to, because these are all things that you learn as a kid, or you don’t learn, you either learn it in a bad way. Right. Um, because the people that raised you maybe are racist or have really biased tendencies, right. Or you don’t learn it at all, and you don’t know history or any reasons why something could be hurtful to someone else. So it’s all I feel like it’s the kids that the youth side of this is so important.
It is. It’s very important. Um, you know, I’ve had to never thought, uh, to, uh, um, uh, nine and a 10 year old that I would be having to have conversations about this topic when they, you know, see things on the news, as far as what’s that, what are they protesting for and all this, then having to explain that to them in a way that they can understand, but, um, you know, uh, I, they, they see what’s going on and then they start forming their own opinions. And what I have to go back and tell them is race. No one is born racist. It’s, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s taught, it’s a learned behavior. And, um, you know, we just have to do our part as a society to, uh, learn and to train a different way because no one is born or raised.
Yeah. I agree. I hope the answer’s no, but have you seen racism in youth sports?
Personally? I have not. Um, and I hope that I don’t ever have to.
Good, good. And that could be because we live in our, our Frisco bubble and everything’s pretty good. And, you know, and in general, um, in our sport city USA here, but, um, I’m also not naive enough to think that’s how it is all, all communities in all parts of the country in the world. Um, but I’m glad to see that you don’t face it often in youth sports. Um, so now the other person I mentioned that was in, on that FC Dallas video, the candid conversations video was, um, the, with the Dallas police department, she mostly listened, um, and was pretty quiet. I did one thing. She said struck me and I wrote it down. She did say the police departments have to change. Um, which is an important thing to acknowledge as we talked about at the very beginning. I mean, we can’t, people can’t just change and listen and be, be loving and everything’s great. And then there’s no change within police system. So for her to say that really shows that they not only have to, I think they’re going to, um, it’s gonna take some time, I think, but, but to hear, or to watch that she was listening, I think that’s an important point as I kind of wrap this up because people like me have to, to change. We have to listen, um, because it’s not good enough anymore to just go through life, not paying attention to it and just being good, you know, thinking everything’s good to go because I’m good to go and not realizing, or even trying to like ask if my friends and people in my community are treated wrongly. Right. Um, so opening my, my eyes, opening my ears, reading more, watching more things like this video and others listening to these athletes and coaches who are actually saying a lot, and it’s important, follow the things they’re talking about, follow the trails and like educate ourselves. Um, but it opens up my, my heart to, and just to be able to feel like I’m making myself better friends and teammates, um, and fans, we have to be better fans too, and neighbors and colleagues within our, our community.
Absolutely. And I think, uh, you kinda, um, you know, made a good point. Uh, it’s not just when, you know, black people within the community step up and protest and say, uh, you know, black lives matters. We really, really start to invoke change when everybody is, is, is collectively saying that same message. And I think that we’ve started to see some of that, uh, with, uh, you know, the, the killing of George Floyd. You know, you didn’t just have black people that were protesting or just one, you know, uh, minority group that were protesting. You had, you had everybody from all walks of life that were protesting and speaking up, uh, on that behalf. And I think that when we do that as a community and when we come together as a community, I think that that’s when we will really, really start to invoke, invoke the real change that we need, because it’s very, very easy to do it for a little bit. And it kind of goes to the wayside and then we have more cases and more stories that come up when everybody’s talking about it, everybody’s, you know, has the same collective message. I think that, you know, I think that that’s where it was.
Certainly and openly and consistently, and to where it’s not a taboo thing to ask somebody about it, um, a neighbor or a friend, what they think about this, what’s happening with this? What is it that I’m missing? Cause this doesn’t make sense to me. Something’s not adding up in something you’re seeing in the news, ask someone, but figure out a conversation with somebody or a pastor or somebody who can go, Oh, you know what? I think this is why you’re not getting it. Right. Here’s why. Okay, great. I’d love to walk away from a conversation, getting it rather than being ignorant, not knowing what the heck’s even happening around me. So. All right, Tony, thank you.
Very welcome. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thank you.
It’s a good chat. We will keep, keep the conversation going and listening and learning more and doing better. Yeah.
Awesome. Thank you.