An Aussie Football Lesson

 

Imagine a round field larger than a football or soccer field. You score by kicking via punch passing and ruckman and forward pockets. These are just a few of the things we learn about Australian Rules Football in this episode. Our guests, James Henderson and Terry Clark, play and coach for the North Texas Devils, and fill us in on the basics of Footy.

Enjoy this episode and other episodes of Hustle and Pro in our archives.

Show Notes

[00:48] Backgrounds of James and Terry
[02:27] Aussie Rules Football – What is it all about?
[15:39] About the North Texas Devils

Resources within this episode: 

• NTX Devils:  Website | Instagram @ntxdevils | Facebook | Twitter
• Kelly Walker: Bio | Instagram @kelly_walkertexas |  Twitter: @kelly_walker_TX

Transcript: (machine-generated)

Hello and welcome to this episode of Hustle & Pro. I’m your host, Kelly Walker. On this episode, us, Texans, are going to get schooled on Australian rules football thanks to our guests, James and Terry. Welcome to the studio, guys. Thank you, Kelly. Thanks for having us. Yeah, this is fun. So, we’re Instagram friends, right? And so we’ve messaged each other. And you, obviously, realize I don’t know a thing about Australian rules football because I don’t even know how to say it correctly ’cause I’ve mentioned the sport as the wrong sport, which we’ll talk about in a little while. So, I wanted to get you guys in here and teach me, you know, what, I don’t know, what I need to know. ‘Cause it’s fun. We have a team here in this area. So, before we talk about the North Texas Devils, I want to know about you guys, specifically. You know, what’s kind of, what’s your background in sports? And so, I guess, maybe James. Let’s start with you.

Yeah. So, um, I’ve been sort of playing Australian football most of my life. Um, played at a few different clubs growing up. It’s one of those sports that, you know, in Melbourne where I’m from, everybody essentially plays Australian football from the age of about five onwards. Um, so I played it a few different clubs. Transitioned to rugby for a period of time, uh, rode for a period of time. And then, uh, ended up in Sydney with a team up there where I ended up coaching for a few years after a bit of an injury that put me out of playing. And then traveled overseas and came to the U S and found that there was a local amateur league. So I got involved here as well. Awesome. What about you Terry? So I was introduced to footy maybe three or four years ago. But me primarily growing up, I played basketball. So I played basketball in high school. That’s as far as I took it. But besides that I played in a lot of rec leagues here in Dallas.

I was going to say I picked up some accent for James, but I wasn’t sure where I’m hearing you from. So you’re from here. I’m from Arkansas. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

So yeah, I don’t really have an accent because- Oh, you do. Well, really? We all do. Okay. Because my, my father is from Arkansas. My mom’s from New York. So, I kind of go in between both of those, but primarily, you know, growing up, you know, there’s traditional sports, basketball, football, a little baseball, but definitely no footy, no footy.

I like that: footy. That’s what that would all you guys call it. I mean, Australian rules football is kind of a mouthful, so yeah. Aussie rules or footy you can go with. Aussie rules. I like that, too. Okay. So what it’s not is American football and it’s also not rugby. Right. So I guess let’s go there. Let’s sort of tell me like the similarities for people like me who are used to American football. What are the similarities with these mainstream sports that like Americans know? And then I guess what are some of the main differences? If- that’s, that’s a lot, but I guess start there.

Let’s unpack that a little bit. Um, I think that the, the most, probably the most similar thing to sports that you’ve known already in terms of American football or rugby is the ball is somewhat of a similar shape. But as you can see, it’s a little bit of a different shape.

Yeah, I’m holding one now. It’s more rounded at the, you know, the ends aren’t as tapered off. More eggy.

More eggy, correct. Yeah. Um, that’s about where the similarities end. And, and so when I do describe this game to people who’ve never seen it before. I actually asked people to visualize a combination of soccer with basketball. Yup. Oh. That’s the, the reaction we get.

We’re on a grass field, whatever you call pitch, field, whatever. So, you’re on a field with how many players are on your-

So we’ve got 18 players on each side on the field at one time. So, it’s 36 guys running around. So that’s soccer plus basketball. Exactly. And in terms of, you know, the, the reason I sort of describe it like that is because it is a 360-degree game. So there’s no onsite, no offsite, people aren’t lining up against each other as you’d have in rugby or in American football. Um, so that’s probably where that basketball similarity comes into it.

So when you go to start the game, your players are mixed on each side of the field.

Correct, correct. Um, and when we do start the game, the other basketball similarity is that there’s a tip-off, although we bounce the ball or throw the ball up, so it’s a little bit different, and the two tallest guys will generally jump up and then I’ll do that tip off to- get possession. Correct. Okay. And then the other interesting thing, though, that always throws people is it’s not played on a rectangular field as rugby or American football would be. It’s actually played on a cricket pitch, a cricket field. So it’s a large oval field, um, almost circular.

Is it common though that you’re converting a soccer field into this for you or is that not- size-wise does that not convert?

Yeah. So the, the average field length, cause the fields actually vary in size. There are some dimensions that need to be the same and regulated on every field. But the average fields run at about 185 yards long by about 155 yards wide.

That’s huge, right? Well, you do have 18 on each side. So I mean there’s a lot of players out there. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of running. Okay. So I’m visualizing that. All the players, the round- that’s crazy big. So what’s the goal situation? Is there an actual structure to the goal or an inline or end zone?

Yeah. So there’s a goal. You got to kick that through the goal.

I told you, I’m like basic, here. You have to like, spell it out for me.

Um, no, there’s a goal and you actually have four posts. So four upright posts. There’s no horizontal posts, just the vertical posts. The two in the middle are much taller. And when you kick it between those two, then that’s a goal. That’s worth six points. Then there’s two shorter posts on the outside. And when you kick it between the large posts and the short post that’s worth one point.

So scoring opportunities are kicks, not, you don’t run anything.

You’re not running things through. It’s all kicking.

Can every player- I’m jumping all around here. First, I was going to say, can any player kick it? Or are there designated players that aren’t allowed to play? Any player can kick it. As a player, are you an offensive specialty defensive or is everybody everything?

Uh, so you, you are sort of more specialized, but everybody can run everywhere. So you don’t have sections or areas that you have to stay within. So you will have guys that become better defensively because you do need to learn some of the skills to be a defensive player. And then you’re going to have some guys which are much better. And as- I keep saying guys, I should say guys and girls, because there’s a lot of women who play as well. But a lot of the people who play you’ll end up having some of those specialties, depending on what you’re good at. Do you have positional names? Yes. Okay, what are your positions?

So I play ruck. Ruck, the ruckman. So it was kind of like he said, at the beginning of the game, it starts with a jump ball. So if you play basketball, that’s why this transition was a little bit easy for me. It’s like doing a tip ball. Sure. So if you play power forward or if you play centers is pretty similar, cause you box it out and you just pretty much trying to get advantage by tipping a ball. So that’s what position I play. How tall are you? I’m 6’6”. Okay. You’re tall also, James. I’m 6’5”, yeah.

Are most of you guys tall and big like this or is there room for smaller guys and girls?

There’s room for everybody of everybody. Okay. What position do you play? Uh, I don’t play anymore. So I’m the coach of the team, now.

What is your old position?

I used to rotate between playing in the ruck, uh, what Terry plays, and also a position called center half forward, which is kind forward of the center of the ground. Yeah.

I mean, you know, center mid in soccer, there’s similarities. Sure. Um, but anybody can score. Are there guys on the team that are like the known scorers, you know, that are commonly going to be the ones that are scoring? Yeah.

Yeah. You’ve got a position called a full forward, which is kind of almost like, um, your striker, if you will, in soccer. So they’re not the primary scores or the only scores I should say. But usually in teams, they come to the primary scores or the better kicks. Um, but they have a guy on each side of them, guy or girl, on each side of them called a forward pocket. And so they sort of sit down in those little pockets of, of that egg shape, uh, ground. And they’re more sort of what we call roving, the balls and the balls in contention. They’re the ones who can pick it up pretty quickly and sort of, you know, move a little more, um, more agility than say the full forward. And they can kick the goals from there as well. So the full forward is kind of a run-and-catch and, and set shot.

Agile, probably. Agile players. Is there anyone goalie-like or safety-like, or, you know, protecting those posts last man to the-

Defense, right? It’s kinda like, um, so I don’t know all the positions like him, but I would think is it’s not a full forward is a full back, full back. So that’s kind of like a safety

That their job is like last man back behind, you know, before they kick it,

Right, it’s kind of like he said, the opposing team, they’re trying to keep their goals. So they would have somebody like two individuals on each side. And so you have somebody kind of like saddle on them. You can call them like a free safety, someone like a quarterback. So when they’re trying to kick it to their team, you’re trying to disrupt that whole situation and kick it back to your team. Think, think about it in basketball, full-court press, that’s kind of, you know, your, your full forward and your full back and you’ve got a forward pocket and a back pocket. So each of the roles have a opposite in terms of the defensive role. And those guys are playing on each other the whole time. Yeah.

To mark up and, and guard or whatever. Um, you might’ve said this. Points-wise, is it one point, more points for the shorter posts?

Six points through the big two middle posts. And then one point between the big posts and the little posts. So I like to think of it like football. Like if you kick a field goal, it’s worth six points. But if you had two individual goals besides the field goals, those are worth one.

What’s a normal score of a game? Like, you know, your average, I mean, I’m guessing it’s not 6-6. Is it like 30? Like, is it what’s your score look like?

If you think about the pro league in Australia, you’re probably talking around 80 to maybe 110. Oh, lots of scoring. Yeah. So it’s fast paced, lots of scoring, pretty dynamic in that way.

Leaning back to the basketball side from soccer side. Okay. Oh, wow. Yeah. That is dynamic. So then tackling, when you, you said somebody throwing the ball, they’re going to, you know, if it’s a loose ball, they’re gonna pick it up and run or do you throw it to each other, you kick it to each other. Can you do either? And can anybody tackle anybody? How does that work?

Uh, so there’s three parts there. So you can’t throw the ball. What you can do is you can pass it with your hands and it’s called a hand pass. Okay. Funnily enough, the naming convention works. Okay. Um, but the way that you do that is you have to punch it. And so the way to describe it to somebody new is think about a volleyball, underhand serve. And that’s sort of the motion that you want to do as you’re passing that ball. And you want to hand pass it in sort of tight quarters, really short, you know, that kind of thing. When somebody catches the ball from a hand pass, there’s no stop-and-play. It’s still, free-flowing still moving really quickly. Um, the other way to pass the ball is to kick the ball. And so there’s a lot of different styles of kicking you. Don’t punt, punt it like you would American football. So it’s not a spiral kick. Uh, you do something that we call as a drop punt, which means the ball flows in a different way. And you can get really accurate with those up to sort of 40, 50 yards and hit somebody, no problem. But when you catch a kick, you can actually stop and you have, you know, a small reprieve where you can actually sort of structure yourself a little bit. So it’s about 10 seconds that you get, unless you’re having a shot for goal where you get 30 seconds. Okay. That make sense? Getting all that?

A little bit. I mean, like, I think fair-catch in football. Like if you’re receiving a kick or something, you have time, you’re not going to get crushed. Yeah. So you’re saying if you catch a 40 or 50 yard kick pass, you aren’t going to get slaughtered immediately.

Not necessarily. Yeah. You’ve got a few moments. And once you catch that, you can handle it on someone else straight away, or you can move on straight away if you want to, uh, if your team’s getting in the right position.

It sounds really fast. Right. Um, are there stoppages like whistles and fowls and like you would think there are?

Yeah. There’s a whole bunch of rules, um, possibly too many to get into for this call. Um, but what I will say is, you know, going back to your question around the tackling piece, so you can tackle people and when you do tackle it through between the shoulders and the hips, so there is a very specific sort of area and method in which you do tackle people, uh, protects their head and, and protects the legs as well. But that means if you tackle somebody and they are dispossessed of the ball and they don’t hand pass it or kick it and they drop the ball, then you get kind of a free, and so it’s a turnover to your possession. Um, but, you know, the converse of that is if you get tackled in a inappropriate way, too high, too low or pushed in the back, uh, then it’s your free. So there is a lot of stoppages in that way where they blowing the whistle saying “ah, let’s see towards that.”

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That part reminds me of lacrosse. Um, how there’s constant file stoppages, but it’s not a full stop down. Correct. Like a lot of players can just keep going. Uh self-start uh, some vowels or whistles starts, but it just means the offending fouler has to just step, get behind the person with the ball to give them a clear, like run at it. So, yeah.

So that’s what happens in our game when, when there’s a catch, which we call a mark or when there’s a foul, which we call a free kick, the person who’s offended or the, or the defender from the mark has to stand on the spot and raise their arms up in the air.

Oh wow. Like shaming them. “I did it. I did it.” That’s awesome. Okay. I mean, that’s, there’s a lot going on, but it’s not, it mixes a lot of different things I’m used to, but it all sounds like very typical stuff. Um, one thing, I don’t know, you, I’m looking at this awesome jersey that I’m gonna wear and I love it. Um, but what are you wearing as players? What, like, do you have pads? Do you have helmets? Is there any protection at all? Or is it just jersey?

Mouthguard. That’s about it. Yeah. That’s about it.

Wow. So it’s a lot of big dudes out there, punch passing, kicking, and tackling each other with no football pads on. Correct. But, but like you said, the rules are set up to where you guys are not going to be head-to-head for all intent. Like you’re not supposed to be hitting heads. Um, heads can probably hit the ground, but, um, you’re not going to have a lot of, do you have a lot of concussions and head injuries?

No. I mean, that’s one of the great things about it, like, the physicality. But it’s not too physical where you can’t get up and go to work the next morning. Like, you know, you’re going to wake up and be sore, but you’re not going to just like, “Oh,” you know. So that’s, what’s great. Like he said, you know, you can not hit me above the head and below the knee. So I’m a tall guy. I definitely don’t want to be hit in my knees or I’m done. Right. So it’s usually like mid tackles or a little throw down to the ground, but nothing too rough.

Just to make you drop the ball. I mean, that’s your goal, right? And the other sports, your goal to tackle is to take them down, right. Knee down and football or something, you know, body, knee, whatever, anything down. But here your goal, isn’t so much to get that player on the ground. It’s to get the ball out of their hands. Is that right?

It is right. You still, you still will take a player to the ground and it can still take a player to the ground. Um, but yeah, primarily you want to do possess them off the ball.

Okay. Terry, how old were you when you start, when you learned how to play Australian rules football? I was 38. Okay. That’s what I was thinking. Like growing up around here, you know, I’m thinking you played all the other sports you mentioned. So I’m like, how did you, when did you learn this? And not that that’s old, but that’s later on to learn a new sport. Right? So like, why did you just pick it up?

So I was going to Lifetime Fitness. I was recovering from knee surgery and a guy by the name of Brandon Miller, who’s local in Dallas, we were taking class. And he just came up to me one day. Like, “man, you’re tall, you’re athletic. You’ll be perfect for Australian football.” And like, everybody else, I’m like, “what the hell is Australian football?” Never heard of it a day in my life. Oh, you hadn’t even heard of it. Never even heard of it. Okay. And so, um, every class he kept coming up to me, I was like, what is this guy want? Like, he was like, “man, just check it out. You’ll be great. I’m pretty sure you’ll make nationals.” I’m like, “what is nationals? Like?” Wow. And so one day he’s like, “man, I’m just going to send you a video, just check it out.” So I watched the video. I was like, “all right. It’s like jump ball.” Showed me a video of the ruckman. He’s like “just come out and play.” And um, I love competing. And so I went out and I went to a practice and practice was just okay. You know, um, nothing too exciting. But that first game, the first time I got hit, that’s when I realized “yeah, I like footy.” Yeah. Like it.

That’s awesome. Okay. So that brings me to the North Texas devils. So who, like, how many guys are there, where do you guys play? When like what’s the seasonality of this sport here? I mean, it’s probably, it’s probably different than in Australia, but what, what are we talking about here with this local team?

Yeah. So we’re playing in a competition called the US AFL, which is the United States Australian Football League. Um, there’s around 50 teams in that, from all across the US. We’re actually the fourth team based out of Texas. Um, so we’ve got a team in Austin, Houston. There is a team in Dallas but it’s closer to downtown Dallas and then there’s us who are representing more Northern DFW. Right. Um, I think that the whole sport is an amateur competition. So there’s no pros and there’s- everyone does volunteer. You know, we seek donations and sponsorships and, and you know, anyone who wants to come and play can play. Um, but that also represents its challenges, I think, being a national sport because, uh, you know, Terry and I were talking about this before. When, when somebody is new to a sport they’ve never heard of and then you’ve got to say, “by the way, you’ve got to get a flight to Chicago or somewhere else, it makes it a little bit cost prohibitive. So for us, we want to, you know, it’s a, it’s a such a phenomenal game that we want to grow the game locally and see how many people we can get engaged and grow. Um, so hence why we started this team and we can then play, you know, more local, Texas-based teams and, and get a team bus to, um, various games and so forth. So, uh, that’s kind of the Genesis, I think, of where the North Texas devils came from. Uh, we started during COVID, which, you know, is also the most challenging thing. But again, cause nobody was traveling to get to other games. Uh, we now have around, uh, 58 people that have signed up. Wow. And then it’s been pretty quick growth on our team app that people sign up to and supporters can sign up on that as well. Uh, and we have around about 40 people that have signed the waivers to actually be able to play. So I look at that more as the, as the number of how many coming out. Yeah.

Yeah. Because you’re not playing until those are signed I’m sure. Correct? Correct. Yeah. Playing games anyway, we’re getting about 20 that are training at the moment which are in Plano.

So it’s probably not a normal season right now. Nothing’s normal with restrictions and things. Um, but what, when would you play? Like what’s the, what does that look like? Yeah.

Pre, pre-COVID, it would normally be sort of a May-to-October timeframe which is I’m getting used to cause it’s actually a winter sport in Australia. And uh, I mentioned cricket grounds before. In cricket, they play, uh, sorry. In summer they play cricket on the ground and then in winter it converts to a football field. Here, you’ve got a lot of cricket, especially here in Frisco. A lot more crickets coming on. And I believe there’s three more cricket grounds being built in Frisco at the moment. Um, but because we have to play in summer because it’s a national camp and you know, the Northern States can’t run the middle of their winter, um, that we can’t, you know, we clash with the cricket teams. And so that’s why we can’t really use those grounds as well. But, um, unfortunately we play in the Texas heat, which is not what the teams sports designed to do.

Is there any indoor option? Too big? If you can find me a field big enough. So nice. Well, if we ever get that indoor Allen, um, I don’t know, maybe it’s not indoor. I thought I thought the cricket facility came in Allen. From my mind, it was going to have some indoor parts, but I don’t know. I don’t even know what I’m talking about. Who knows things have all changed so much in the last year or two. I’m not sure if that’s even being, being built. All right. How can people find out and like go follow you guys and all that good stuff.

Uh, we’ve tried to keep it as simple as possible. So any social media is just NTX Devils. Um, so whether you’re on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, uh, NTX Devils. The website is also ntxdevils.com and uh, yeah, you’ll be able to find us that way or you can send us an email to info@ntxdevils.com.

Okay. What else am I missing? I mean, I feel like we covered all the, the baby basics of what, um, Australian rules football is.

I would just like to say like, um, for athletes. Another reason why I love footy. Cause like I said, I played basketball, played in plenty of basketball leagues, plenty of flag football leagues. It’s not organized the way a USA FL is. Like you said, there’s 50 teams throughout different states. So not only do we play like local teams, like in a basketball league, she might play six or other teams or whatever, but you don’t get to travel from state to state. So if you’re really competitive, uh, this is definitely something you want to try out because not only do we play teams and what Austin, um, Tulsa we’ve been to Arkansas, we’ve been to Denver, uh, LA and he hasn’t even touched on like our playoffs, which is called Nationals where it’s in a, in a, in a great state or teams from all the US come and even guys come from Australia, it’s this great big event. It’s what, three days? Two days, two days. And then after the whole national tournament, you know, we all get together and just have a great big party. It’s a lot of fun to be had. A lot.

Very cool. So when you think of like recruiting people who are interested, I’m guessing you want players that know what they’re doing, obviously, if they do great. But seeing somebody like Terry who didn’t even know and have a background in it and caught on and loves the competitive nature of it. So you welcome those kinds of guys too?

Absolutely. Absolutely. We welcome anybody and everyone who wants to try out. Um, as a new startup club, we’re really just trying to build out the team and get as many as we can down. Yeah. Um, we’re starting to sort of focus on some other sports teams. We don’t want to still play some other teams, but there’s leagues. You know, you mentioned lacrosse before they sort of wind down relatively soon. So some of those guys are coming across. We’ve got some rugby guys who were trying out. Um, we’re doing a mixed rules, sort of exhibition match against the Irish football team, which is a whole different type of football on June 5th. And so who knows if any of those players will come along, but again, basketball gymnasiums, you name it. We’re sort of recruiting people. Is there an age, can any kind of anybody? Anyone, anyone over 18, um, just from the, from the labor perspective. We will allow people 16 to 18 to train, to learn the game, but then obviously parental consent. Sure. But I 18+ to play.

What’s your average age? You got a range of everybody?

Well, we’re a little older right now, uh, in our club because I think we’ve got some more experienced dudes who have played for a while. Um, I think we’re looking around in the early thirties, there’s never judged.

And if you talk about guys, people who are going to be able to travel and get on planes and make that part of their lifestyle, I mean, you know, most of us can’t do that when we’re 21. Um, so you gotta, gotta have a little bit of maturity in life behind you to be able to like get up and do that.

Yeah. That’s why we want to grow it more locally so that more people can get involved at a younger age. Um, but it’s also why we rely so heavily on the sponsors and the donors and things. So we can then subsidize trouble, um, when we need to, for people who may not be able to afford it.

Yeah. And you’ve got some awesome sponsors. Um, I’m looking at here. If you want to, you want to mention them? You can.

Absolutely. Yeah. We’ve um, we’ve had a few Australian businesses come on board. So here in Frisco, many people who probably listened to this would be very familiar with the Aussie Grind. Um, so they came on board, Louie down there. Absolutely fantastic and now one of our first sponsors. Um, we’ve also got a couple of, uh, Australian-owned businesses that are local to this area. Um, Frisco, Plano area. So candy and flooring design and guru contracting, both Australian-owned businesses locally. Um, many people would probably be pretty familiar with Grandscape that had their grand opening fairly recently as well. So they’ve jumped on board for our first season. 3 Nations Brewing based out in Carrollton have, have come on board. And then also the Helping Friendly is a CBD company, which is based out of Denton. And so they’re on as well

That’s a great mix. Well, I’ve learned a lot. Hopefully our listeners have too. There’s a lot more to learn. I know. So, um, I want to, we’ll keep in touch with you guys so that when you’re playing games and everything’s up and running,

I want it to reveal one more thing to you if I can. And viewers, people might be able to see this, but you can comment on it. Uh, you asked the question before, what are we playing? And so we actually play Australian rules football in relatively short shorts, but in tank tops. Um, so here’s our team team travel jersey. That’s got a real basketball look to it. So we’ll similar-ish to basketball, but a little different, obviously a little more durable because we’re tackling and things like that as well. But that’s how- much more fitted. Yeah. So that’s our jersey. Terry hasn’t seen that yet. We haven’t done that yet. I’m not a big fan of the short shorts. I used to wear some sorts of pants underneath, but- short shorts are coming back in. They’re definitely shorter.

Drive by any local high school. All the guys are wearing they’re there. Those shorts are getting small. Again, it is funny. It cracks me up. Um,

But I’d like to mention one thing. Um, if you’re young enough and you pick up the game quick enough, there’s an opportunity for you to potentially turning pro right? And going Australia. Yeah. So, so there’s been some exchange programs that have happened over time with people going over. What I’ll say is that the only American in the Australian professional league right now is from here. He’s from Highland Village. Yeah. He’s he’s name’s Mason Cox. He’s 6’10”. He played for Oklahoma City, basketball. And in 2014 they did a combine. Um, that professional league did a combine, the US and picked him up and took him over

When he was done playing for the Thunder? Like

I think during college, right? Yeah. College college. And he went over, I think he spent about four years learning the game. I had never even heard of it or seen it before, um, spent about four years learning about it. Now, he’s over there playing.

So, wow. Yeah. Highland Village. That’s funny. I mean, one of our MLS players is from Highland Village. Funny little pocket there. When we were talking about earlier all the, all the athletics, um, athleticism that comes out of this area. Very cool. Well, I’ve learned a lot and I appreciate it. And um, when the games start happening, maybe we’ll get, y’all get y’all back in here and we’ll do Round 2, teach me some more once I’ve seen it in action so I can understand it even more. So, James Henderson and Terry Clark with the North Texas Devils. Thank you guys so much. Thanks for having us, thank you. And thank you for listening to this episode of Hustle & Pro. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.