A (red) Lightbulb Moment on Xscaping Pain
A (red) Lightbulb Moment on Xscaping Pain
Sports and pain tend to go hand in hand. In episode 81, we sit down with Andre and April Patterson to learn a few things about red and near-infrared light therapy, a treatment that aids in fast recovery from workouts, injury, and pain. The US military uses it. Olympics teams and Formula 1 uses it. Rugby and cricket teams use it.
In the United States, it’s only just now catching up to the widespread use for many years in the UK. At Frisco’s own Xscape Pain, people are getting red light therapy treatment to take care of their chronic pain, sports injuries, skin issues, and even hair regrowth.
How does it work? Photobiomodulation is the technical term, aka cold laser, low-level light, red light. It uses lasers or LEDs to improve tissue repair and reduce inflammation wherever the beam is applied. Learn more from Andre in this episode and go give it a try. Hit up Xscape Pain for your free treatment and tell them Hustle and Pro sent you!
Enjoy this episode with Andre Patterson, and, listen to more episodes from the Hustle & Pro archives.
- [0:32] Quick hits with Andre Patterson
- [2:20] Football, softball and powerlifting, oh my
- [4:03] Entrepreneurial family
- [5:11] Photobiomodulation – what is it?
- [8:45] Why do people use red light therapy?
- [14:00] The bed or the probe or both?
- [16:15] The Xscape Pain experience
- [20:00] Success stories: From 26 shots a month to no pain for 4 days after 1 treatment!
- [28:03] How to find Xscape Pain
Resources within this episode:
- Xscape Pain: Website | Facebook @XscapePain | Instagram @XscapePain | Twitter @XscapePain | LinkedIn
Address: 3110 Main St, Suite 325 Frisco, TX 75033
Phone: 972-528-7033 Text LIGHTMEUP for your free session!
- Kelly Walker: Instagram @kelly_walkertexas | Twitter: @kelly_walker_TX
Connect with Lifestyle Frisco:
Welcome to Hustle and Pro season two talking sports and Frisco from youth to pro. Now here’s your host, Kelly Walker.
Welcome to this episode of hustle and pro. So today I felt a little bit of sports pain from some of the sports that I’ve been playing this summer and trying to nurse an ankle injury. You’ve probably heard me talk about, so we’re going to talk about that today. We have Andre and April Patterson here to talk with this. Hi guys. How are y’all doing? Good. I’m great. I’m great. It’s Friday. All right. So first I want to know a little bit about your connection to sports and, uh, let’s see, who would you say is your favorite athlete?
Oh man. I, you know, this might be controversial these days, but one of my favorite athletes is LeBron James.
Yes. Controversial. Sure, sure, But, but yeah, that’s, that’s a good common answer. So then what are your favorite sports?
So I’d say basketball is by far probably my favorite. We’re a martial artists family. So of course, you know, I, I love the, the, you know, ground and pound UFC, right. Um, you know, these days we’re so busy, we don’t get a chance to watch as much, but I tend to watch the highlights.
So when you say you’re a martial arts family, you, did you participate when you were younger in that? Or is that something like your children currently?
Yeah. We’re all TaeKwonDo black belts except for the three year old. Not yet. And hopefully you will be testing for a second Dan soon. Wow. Out of the blue, I would have never thought. I mean, you know, we clean up, well.
This isn’t my top of mind, like mainstream guess of, you know, what’s happening in sports. Cause it’s not my, my lane, but that’s awesome. It’s fascinating to me, man. We need another episode on it. Okay. We’ll do that next time. So one more quick hit too. So then, Oh, I bet I can guess this. What’s your favorite sports movie? Oh man. You’re going to say karate kid. Aren’t you?
Actually, now that you say that I’ve been watching Cobra Kai a lot lately. So I don’t know if it’s my favorite sports movie. It’s a classic. Um, but right now Cobra,Kai has been awesome. It’s been a continuation of the story and I think it’s been great. So it’s awesome. Yeah.
I love it. All right. So tell me, um, in addition to that, you know, that background, what is your background? What’s your story? And it’ll lead us also into telling us like talking about pain and kind of pain management too.
Sure, sure. No. Um, basically I grew up in the area I grew up in, in the Dallas area, of course, just like many people in Texas. I played football. Right. So that was kinda my, my intro to sports. My wife on her other hand is much more ingrained in sports.
I’ve played sports since the age of four or five. What sports? Softball. And then, in middle school I added volleyball and basketball actually. I’m sorry. I played basketball since I was five as well. So, volleyball, basketball, softball, and then I power lift and my senior year of high school. And now I’m a martial artist cause I like torture in my body.
That’s awesome. You had me at softball and basketball and volleyball those sports, but I can not say the power lifting part. So I only did it for a year, but I got pretty pretty far in, when I competed in high school. I bet you learned a ton about that.
I did. I did. And I loved the way it made me feel in some way. I love the way that like I felt strong, you know, but it was, it was kind of rough on the body. It was the first time where I started to really feel like the aches and pains without when you don’t know proper maintenance, you know, when you’re lifting like that, you gotta take care of yourself.
Yeah. It seems like it would be rough on the body. On the knees. For sure. Yeah, for sure. So then fast forward to now, you know, adult life and we’re here and Frisco, and I know you guys are small business owners. So tell me about, about that journey.
Yeah. So as a family, we’ve been entrepreneurial, as long as I can remember it started with my mother, right? So my mother owned our own marketing advertising business for 25 years. Um, what actually brought her to Frisco was, she opened up a math or reading learning center, uh, 15 years ago. And so, you know, we all participated in that. We opened up one in Austin where my wife ran that one. Um, and then, we, you know, got into all sorts of different businesses. And one of those, we got introduced to, the health and wellness side of the house with red light therapy. And, um, you know, we had a close friend of ours that was a huge pain suffer. She was dealing with a chronic illness and she exposed us to it because a friend of hers was, being propositioned by a company to endorse it actually he’s a local, a professional athlete. Um, and, she had, you know, she was very close friends with his wife. She got exposed to the red light, bed and completely changed her life. And that’s how we got exposed to that.
I’ve heard some of these stories about this type of, I don’t know if the words treatment or therapy. Modality. Okay. I didn’t even know that word. And I’ve personally experienced it and heard about it and the most, most recently, and just in the last few years with different injuries, you know, playing softball and all the different things I do and my husband does, um, playing soccer, we get hurt a lot and we, as we get older, we’re recovering slower and maybe not recovering and it’s definitely changed, you know, recovery times for us. So, that’s how you, and I know each other is, is this red light therapy bed, right. Um, but the technical term for it is photobiomodulation. Did I say that right? Spot on. Okay.
PBM. All right. So you can articulate that better than me. That is your business. So what is photobiomodulation?
So actually photobiomodulation is the technical term that they’re using today, but it’s a technology that’s actually been around for 50 years. It’s gone by different names in the past, a cold laser cold laser therapy, low level laser or low level light therapy is also other other terms for, or simply red light red light therapy. And quite simply what they found is, is that light within a certain frequency. Actually instead of damaging ourselves, serves as a catalyst to ourselves to heal themselves, right? And so not to get too geeky with it, but what they realize is when our cells are exposed to certain frequencies in particular 600 to 880 nanometers, right? That’s the range that we’re talking about, ATP, right? So the energy source of ourselves goes way up oxidative stress, which is the damaging aspects of aging. So to speak, it goes way down. And so then our cells are able to heal themselves. And so what that means is, is inflammation goes way down, pain goes way down. And once that, those aspects of those conditions goes way down. Now, the cells have the ability to really, perform the way they were designed to perform.
Like repair and replenish and get back to the way they should be performing? Right. That’s exactly right. So you mentioned this isn’t new, like it’s newish to people like me, but, so it’s, and it’s kind of a mainstream thing, right? Like in Canada, in the UK?
Internationally, it’s very popular. I remember when we were starting, you know, starting to do our research. Um, again, I hadn’t heard of it. I went to pubmed.gov, which is the national Institute of health website typed in photobiomodulation and found thousands of white papers. And so I knew friends, you know, around the world, I started just throwing it out there and asking have you heard of red light therapy? And they would laugh at me and they would say, yeah, we’ve been doing this a really long time. I don’t know why it’s taking you guys so long to find out. Right, exactly. So apparently we like our pills here in America is what they would say.
Well, yeah. I mean, unfortunately that is a major problem in our, in our kind of culture of, of sports and just injuries and going to the doctor, going to the ER, you oftentimes leave with, with the prescription and that might not fix your problem. It masks your problem. And then you might be reliant on opioids or whatever it is that sort of masked that, that problem. And he did that. He didn’t get to the root of. Yeah. But I’ve also heard that, um, red light therapy can also like heal wounds and regenerate kind of skin issues and things like that. So I don’t know, give me kind of a laundry list. Like why do so many people use it.
You, I mean, you actually bring up a great point. Kelly, the application is far ranging because remember this is impacting you at the cellular level, right? And so once the mitochondria is revved up, you got energy, um, revved up and the damage has happened. It gets your cells with oxidative stress goes way down. The applications are widespread now. So some of the things that people use it for on the skin level are things like increased collagen or reduction of scarring. Right. Because now these cells are optimal. Right. And so now they’re healing and repairing the way they’re designed to repair. Yeah. And so that also means that people that are suffering from say chronic illnesses, um, like, um, auto immune disorders that are result in a lot of inflammation, inflammation is a natural byproduct, right? It’s a, it’s a part of the process or the disease process of cells. Well, it’s also painful. Right? And it also causes a lot of other challenges. Well, if you’re able to reduce that and reduce the, the cells, being attacked, they’re able to do what they were designed to do. Right. And so we have people coming to us to obviously reduce pain. That’s in the name of our business, like back pain, back pain, knee pain is another one that people come to us often, right? Like torn meniscus or.
Too much power lifting in high school. Frozen shoulder is another one. I was just literally this morning talking to a friend who has, she said I have frozen shoulder now. I didn’t know that term until today. It’s funny. Yeah. It’s, across the board. It definitely is across the board as far as joint, anything having to do with joints, adema or having to do tissue, like tissue damage, um, torn muscles, especially elite athletes are definitely leveraging. I know the Olympians made it a big deal in 2016 for their sprinters, because what they used to say is, you know, recovery from say, a hamstring pull would take week, week and a half if not longer. Right. And so those are all the different examples of how it was being applied now. Um, you’re also seeing it being applied from a TBI perspective. So traumatic brain injuries, concussions, cognitive. I chuckle because these days, I don’t know if you’ve been seeing these, uh, these laser helmets or laser hats for regrowing hair. Like Bosley has one. Well, I’ve heard of that, but I don’t, I don’t specifically know that like application. Yeah.
And so the reason why I chuckle is because that was a byproduct of them using the helmet to address TBIs when they were doing their analysis and their case studies on using red light therapy, to address, you know, traumatic brain injuries, they noticed that hair was being regrown. So now they’re like, Oh, we should market this as a product. You see the hair helmets all the time. Yeah. And they do work. They definitely work. But that, wasn’t the initial reason for it. Do you want to give a personal testimony about your dad, can we share. Well, his father has been bald for what, like over 27 years, probably longer years, 30 years. And his hair just doesn’t grow. But you know, he, he gets in the bed often and he noticed a little stubble starting to come. He noticed he had to start shaving because he’s, yeah, he’s getting fuzzy everywhere.
I love hearing those personal stories and connections. April, what about you? What made you interested in this as a part of the family business?
One of the ways I was really sold into finding more holistic ways of healing was, because I suffer from a condition called VCD, which has vocal cord dysfunction. And in some of the symptoms are just hoarseness, always coughing. And always when I have flare ups, it feels like I’m having asthma attacks. Only my oxygen levels are great. So I go to doctors and of course get misdiagnosed and I’ve gotten pills and steroids and all kinds of things thrown at me, asthma pumps and nothing was happening. So, I just started realizing that there were just more, you know, I started investigating more holistic ways of just treating myself. And one of the ways I did that was changing my diet, taking dairy out and then light therapy, just finding things that my body, I can treat my body well enough for it to heal itself. Letting your body do the natural work. Right. And it was so much better than pills and, you know, steroids or whatever was getting thrown at me. It was, it was wonderful. I haven’t really had a flare up since we’ve changed my way of living.
I love that. That’s great. So we’ve talked about not only that then skin issues and hair regrowth and scalp traumatic brain injury, knee, back pain. I have an ankle injury and I have had, um, red light therapy done on my ankle specifically with like a handheld item. And I’ve also laid in the therapy bed. So I’m curious what you guys are seeing. And if that’s common that you use both kinds of applications of red light therapy and for which kinds of injuries are best.
Very common. As a matter of fact, one of our most popular packages is a combo package where we have clients that want to do both the bed as well as the probe. So yes, the probe is targeted, but it’s concentrated, which means that one treatment from the probe is like four trips to the bed. Right. But it’s for a specific area. Right. Um, and so people will come to us to address like an ankle or a knee or, you know, shoulder, neck, but then of course they want the treatment for the whole body. Right. Um, for, for the universal effects, just, you know, for the, for the body as a whole. And so, um, the probe is actually probably one of the oldest form factors of red light. So people that have been exposed to it in the medical field, in particular or on the health and wellness. Chiropractors, so a lot of them are starting to use red light, um, as a part of, you know, an additional modality as far as a part of their services. Believe it or not some of the biggest believers of red light therapy, especially when you’re talking about the probe are veterinarians. Um, yep. When I went to the training, uh, for red light therapy, when dr. James Carol is very famous in the industry, uh, came to give his training, there was maybe a hundred of us there I’d say 70, 70 of them, there were vets. Wow. And they weren’t there to be convinced. They knew it worked. It was, they were there to be trained on the technology because from their perspective with animals, there’s no placebo effect. Right. Either it works or it doesn’t right. And they were convinced time and time again, this works right.
And so that’s where the, a lot of the probes were, were being used. You’re also starting to see, uh, uh, you know, it used in dentistry as well as orthodontics as well. I know there was one practice here in the DFW area. I wish I had his name at hand, but he has a whole laundry list of studies where they were using mouth guards that were doing red light therapy for five minutes where it was significantly speeding up braces, right. How long you had to have him on. And so he would have like prognosis initial prognosis of 17 months down to five months. Wow. Or, you know, 20 months down to, you know, 8 months and laundry, you just keep scrolling. And there was this study after study, after study where all these clients. So many different ways to use it. I didn’t know many of those.
So you talked about like a combo package and we talked about the probe and the light. So, um, I just kinda want people to understand like what we’re even talking about. So first of all, we’re talking about your business, which is Xscape Pain, and that’s what an X, if you’re listening to this, it’ll be, it’ll be on the, on the podcast. You can check it out, but we’ll also tell you how, but, so when you walk in to somewhere like Xscape Pain, you, you get a choice. If you want to do that full bed experience or the pro experience. So like, I know maybe this isn’t how you tell everybody, but like the bed looks and kind of feels like a tanning bed. People like me, who I hate to admit it, but used to lay in tanning beds when I was like young and didn’t know that you’re not supposed to hold it. Yeah. So it’s, it’s kinda nice laying in there. Um, as a busy mom, it’s like a, it’s like a treat to lay in a, in a quiet, warm room by myself with nothing, no distractions. It’s like a, they at the spa, but it’s also nice laying there knowing this is not damaging. You know, this is not giving me skin cancer. This is all good, that low light level, um, you know, giving you all the benefits. And so you lay there and it’s actually like, you know, you feel better and you kind of leave with like a sense of like a renewed energy, right. Because you just sort of got this little burst of energy.
So what’s the typical length of minutes that you’re in the bed? 15 minutes. So 15 minutes is what we,, you know, settled on, maximum was 20 minutes, but everyone is good to go at at 15. Uh, I will say when you look online, it ranges right from eight to 12 minutes sometimes as what they’ll call out. But we feel like 15 minutes, everyone walks away feeling, feeling really, really good.
Yeah. So I mentioned that it kind of looks like a tanning bed, right? Yeah. Um, so my experience, um, was my first time laying in that bed. I, you know, I didn’t know what to expect, but, uh, Ciarra works there. Um, and she gave me the rundown, but what’s cool is that like, she gave me, she gave me the instructions and set me up and everything is, um, sanitized and wiped and cleaned and ready to go. There are some optional, like I coverings if you want to use them. But she also explained that you don’t have to, which is awesome, knowing that, Oh my gosh, if that rolls off or falls off, I’m not going to go blind. If I open my eyes, you can even look at your phone if you want. Right. All that stuff. But, um, but she gives you the rundown. She even helped me get a fan going on me so that I wasn’t leaving there gross and sweaty, you know, that kind of thing. But, she even sets the timer and turns it on. So it’s like, I don’t even have to mess wtih it or worry about messing it up. You just let you just pop in. And she goes in back to the front desk and does it all remotely.
It turns on by itself. And it turns off by itself. Yeah. I like that because that’s the kind of stuff that stresses me out. I don’t want to be laying there thinking, Oh my God, have I been in here 30 minutes already? What’s happening? Yeah. Am I cooking? Yeah. Did I set this wrong. What did she say about that? So I know that’s the weird things that go through my mind, but yeah. Ciarra and Serene.
Yes. Serene’s our other employees. Well, they’re both phenomenal. We get a great reviews from everyone. They’re very sweet at the end of the day. What we really care about is, um, making sure people feel good, right. I mean, yes, we know the longterm effects are awesome, but in reality, like you just stated, I mean, we really focused on addressing the everyday person. Yes. People that are elite athletes benefit greatly. And we have a few of them that come, but in reality, we have people from all sorts of walks of life come. Right.
People feel normal pain every day, like we do. Absolutely. So, uh, I’m curious, you mentioned like elite athletes and everyday people I’m curious, like what can you kind of give us some examples of like success stories that you’ve seen? I mean, I know you told us about your, your father, right. But what are some of the other examples? I’m always fascinated by hearing what was wrong with somebody on day one and then how did they come out of it? And like, what did they, how did it help them?
We have, we have a number of success stories. I’ll keep it within the context of athletics. Uh, so we do have elite athletes that are, you know, power powerlifters. Like my wife had mentioned, um, on a whole nother level. I’ll give you one in particular, this woman, definitely, you know, she’s the type that, that lives in the gym. We call them a gym rat, right. It’s definitely a gym rat. And she had so much pain in her shoulders that she was having to sleep in the bed for two years with her arms and pillows because she couldn’t let her arms relax. No, not at all. And of course the prognosis was, she had to get surgery, but she didn’t want to do surgery because she couldn’t work out. Nobody wants to have downtime if you’re, if you’re active.
Absolutely. She was getting 12, saline shots in her left shoulder, 14 saline shots in her right shoulder every month. She did cupping. She did all sorts of modalities to try to alleviate the pain. Um, we did one treatment from the, from the probe one treatment. She was without pain for four days from one treatment, one treatment for four days right now to put that in context, even when she would get the saline shots, it would take her pain level from a nine to like maybe a four or five with this. She probably had pain alleviation. Uh, this is, you know, from her, her lips, going from a nine down to a three to two that night and then the next night down to one zero.
Wow. So, I mean, that goes back to the whole notion of like this red light therapy photo bio modulation, right. Isn’t just a pain relief bandaid. It’s actually a healer, right? So it actually repairs some of these damaged cells.
That’s a great call out. And the other thing is there are no known side effects. So it is a great, I mean, they’ve actually had a lot of studies recently, where, you know, oral mucositis is a common by-product for cancer patients, right? And so oral mucositis is where their body stops producing mucus, but that ends in ulcers and sores. And that’s why a lot of you’ll see, you know, dried lips and depending on what treatment they’re getting, some of them, there are a hundred percent guaranteed to get oral mucositis. Well, they were using red light therapy to heal those wounds. Right. Not just reduce the pain. Cause obviously the pain was one thing, but you would have these sores that would stay open diabetic or ulcers is another one where they would not close up. I would, I like to reiterate this. It’s not the red light that actually does the healing. Right. It’s your body. That’s doing it. All the red lights doing is a catalyst, right? So it triggering it, turning your body on to do what was designed to do to begin with. So that’s, that’s the cool thing about it is again, they can’t explain why our bodies react this way. They just know that this happens. They just know that this is the phenomenon that our cells react to this, these frequencies of light. Right. And they can get really technical when explaining that. But then you say, but why. You already lost me at the 600 to 800 nanometers?
I do want to say that we oftentimes say red light, but it’s actually two frequencies. That’s why I mentioned the 600 and 800 nanometers. It’s red light, which is the visible part. That’s what you always see the red. Right. But it’s also near infrared, which is the 800 nanometer, which is an invisible. Oh. And the reason why I mentioned that is this is different than infrared sauna. Right. So when people will say, you know, like, like I know a lot of med spas have infrared saunas. I’ve sat in those before. And so those get a little higher in the frequency where that’s actually in reference to far infrared that’s when you start generating heat. So that’s why the term cold laser was being applied to this a lot. Right. So it was cold laser because it’s not heat generating it’s right on the cusp where, you know, it’s on that light frequency where it’s not, you know, generating that heat. And so there’s, there’s benefits to infrared saunas. It’s just different than what we are doing.
In that second type of laser, you talked about it doesn’t damage you. Cause somebody like me is like, Oh, is that the kind you can’t see that scary? Like, are we back to the UV and all that stuff, the dangerous stuff. So we know this has been around long enough where we know it’s safe.
It is very safe. Yeah. Um, there’s very, very few contraindications that are related to near infrared. Right. Again, device matters how it’s applied matters, where it applies matters as well. But at the end of the day, um, you know, the areas that we like to stay away from are, if you’re pregnant, we won’t let you get in the light bed. It’s not because there’s, you know, potential damage. It’s just, there’s no study has been done on that. And no one wants to take that risk of putting a pregnant woman. However, I’m using the probe on pregnant women is great for specific areas. We just like to stay away from the fetus. Right. So ankles swollen, ankles, right. You know, damaged shoulders or backs are hurting. Probes are great for that. Right. And so that’s, that’s one. Um, and the other one is, uh, we like to stay away from injection sites from steroids. Right. So anything that has a potential adverse effect or a result from increased circulation, that’s, that’s really where we like to like to make sure we’re, we’re cautious. Okay.
That’s fascinating. All of the different uses or I don’t know, applications and the ways that you’ve seen your clients escape pain, like heal. It’s so cool. Um, and how long have you guys been there?
So we, I guess it’s coming up on two years. Yeah. We were officially supposed to have our ribbon cutting in March. Uh, unfortunately this, uh, epidemic related to climate, change this in the teeth. But you’re open. You’re up. You’re fully open up and running and, you know, um, I mentioned it’s, it’s one of those places that you make your reservation, you book your online and you go in, and there’s one, typically like a singular person helping you, getting you into your own private room you’re in and out 15, 20 minutes. Like it’s a pretty easy thing to happen or to go through and experience even right now when things are not at full speed. That’s right. The only thing we changed really once we reopened up, is the hours. So before we were opened up a little bit longer, now it’s just Monday through Saturday 9 to 2.
We also have an oxygen bar. So that brings in a different group where we have some people that literally all are about the, the, you know, they, they pop in, Hey, I need to go and get a fix real quick on this oxygen bar and get out. There was someone doing that when I was in there last week. And I said, how’s it, how is it? And she said, Oh, it was great. Try this one. You know, so I will, I will try it. We have different flavors. Basically, it’s a combination of oxygen and aroma therapy. Yeah. Right. And so it’s, yeah, it’s aroma therapy and infused oxygen and people come in and depending on what they’re looking for. So, um, you know, those that I know there’s big proponents of essential oils and that’s what we use. Right. And so you know, depending on what you’re addressing, we had some people that come to us that are suffering from allergies or headache, others, you know, they’re looking just for a pleasant, you know, pleasant, you know, relaxing, relaxing, uh, scent. And so when we combine that with red light therapy, so again, one of the byproducts of red light therapy is increased circulation. So we have people that do the red light bed and then they’ll go to the oxygen bar. So now their blood is flowing and they’ve got oxygenated blood that’s flowing even better. Right. And so, yeah, that’s why we kind of combined those two. They are good layering on each other. Okay.
So then tell people who haven’t been there yet to Xscape Pain, where they can find you physically and find out more about you online.
Sure. We’re at the Northeast corner of main and teal. Um, I know everyone feels ashamed when I use this as a reference, but if you know where Hurt donuts is, you can see us when you, soon as you walk out, our door Hurts during this to the right. It’s you know, we have. Yeah, they’re great. And so that’s where we’re located. As far as online, you can go to www.xscapepain.com. So that again, that’s XSCAPEpain.com. We’re on all the social media platforms as Xscape Pain. So you can always find us there. Um, you can call us, you can text our business line at, uh, (972) 528-7033. But the easiest way, I always tell people if you’re interested in a free light bed session, right, or free light therapy session text, lightmeup to that phone number, lightmeup. Lightmeup. No, no spaces just say lightmeup to the 972 number. What was it? (972) 528-7033. Awesome. I’ll put that in the show notes for everybody listening too. If you guys want to go by and check it out.
Well, Andre and April, thank you guys so much for popping in the studio today and teaching me a little bit about learning a new, big word. Photobiomodulation I can roll it off the tongue. I got it. Now, now that we’ve talked about it for 20 minutes. Well, thanks, Andre. Have a good rest of your Friday. And thank you for listening to Hustle and Pro. Subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we will see you next week.