Lipstick on a Pig

canam

Bronze Member
#41
There are 12 HS football games (excluding playoffs) per season. Assuming an equal split of home & away games, this means that there are 6 Friday nights which will be used by FISD. If the Varsity teams play on Thursday, that gives us another 6. So now we're up to 12 nights out of 365. Let's assume play off runs and we're up to - what? - 20 nights out of 365? Chuck in HS graduation ceremonies, soccer games, band competitions, Pin Day (whatever that is) and FISD will have use of this facility for no more than 50-ish days/nights per year. Any additional event that FISD wishes to host at the stadium will have to be blessed by the Cowboys beforehand and the former will have to pay $4,500 per event plus all costs associated with security, ticketing, etc.

So, FISD is spending $35M on a facility it can use for maybe 50 days/nights per year. I cannot see how any school district can justify this.
Have you been to Allen ?
 

Piiilot

Platinum Member
#43
Have you been to Allen ?
You know I hate to nit pick - but really we are probably a little worse than Allen - we paid 65 million dollars for Pizza Hut Park, where our kids can at least play football and soccer, and another 35 mil for Jerry's stadium - so we will have spent a 100,000,000 dollars on stadiums. I think Allen only spent 65 million.
 
#44
Allen has a population of a little more than 90K and is pretty well land locked.

Frisco has 150K and is planning on going to over 300K. We will need to spend more.
 

Rebel

Diamond Member
#45
You know I hate to nit pick - but really we are probably a little worse than Allen - we paid 65 million dollars for Pizza Hut Park, where our kids can at least play football and soccer, and another 35 mil for Jerry's stadium - so we will have spent a 100,000,000 dollars on stadiums. I think Allen only spent 65 million.

Allen also had to have an election to raise their ISD Taxes above State limits, we have not.

With the TIRZ Structure and leases with FC Dallas and Cowboys, the debt is repaid from those sources, which has helped keep FISD and Frisco City Taxes lower than the surrounding communities. The only way to have kept them lower is to not have a stadium at all, and just use the fields at the Schools like others have suggested. Perfectly reasonable argument if thats what you prefer. Comparing our financing structure to Allen's is really an apples to oranges comparison since their debt is 100% on the tax payers with no other entities invovled. Given the choice of ours vs theirs, I'll take our current tax rates over theirs.
 
#46
Here's a question. Rather than having a *school district* contribute $35M to a multi-billionaire's private venture, why could not FISD use FC Dallas stadium on a pay-per-use arrangement? The field is large enough for football, soccer, band practices, Pin Ceremonies, etc. seats 8,000 more people than the new dome and is already built. And like with the new dome, FISD wouldn't be responsible for the stadium's upkeep.

So, what logistical, financial, football, common-sensical reason(s) is/are there against FISD using FC Dallas' location?
 

Rebel

Diamond Member
#47
Here's a question. Rather than having a *school district* contribute $35M to a multi-billionaire's private venture, why could not FISD use FC Dallas stadium on a pay-per-use arrangement? The field is large enough for football, soccer, band practices, Pin Ceremonies, etc. seats 8,000 more people than the new dome and is already built. And like with the new dome, FISD wouldn't be responsible for the stadium's upkeep.

So, what logistical, financial, football, common-sensical reason(s) is/are there against FISD using FC Dallas' location?
Too many schools. Even if they were solely FISD Stadiums 1 stadium wouldn't be enough to schedule everyone on the days they have to schedule them.
 

Mom+4

Silver Member
#48
There are 12 HS football games (excluding playoffs) per season. Assuming an equal split of home & away games, this means that there are 6 Friday nights which will be used by FISD. If the Varsity teams play on Thursday, that gives us another 6. So now we're up to 12 nights out of 365. Let's assume play off runs and we're up to - what? - 20 nights out of 365? Chuck in HS graduation ceremonies, soccer games, band competitions, Pin Day (whatever that is) and FISD will have use of this facility for no more than 50-ish days/nights per year. Any additional event that FISD wishes to host at the stadium will have to be blessed by the Cowboys beforehand and the former will have to pay $4,500 per event plus all costs associated with security, ticketing, etc.

So, FISD is spending $35M on a facility it can use for maybe 50 days/nights per year. I cannot see how any school district can justify this.
Not all of the aforementioned events will be $4500. I'm betting that many will be $2500 (less than 1500 expected attendance - ie. JV games)

The pin ceremony is a big deal to the administration. This is an event where staff are honored by their "year pins" (5 year, 10 year, etc...awards, etc.)

The other stadiums sit empty the rest of the year as well. And if you'll read how I described the funding of this... it doesn't come out of the property taxes you and I pay every year.

And...let's not forget how the M&A is handled by the Cowboys. This is a good deal for the district.

Graduation, etc. will be held here instead of Dr. Pepper (or maybe both???)
 

Mom+4

Silver Member
#49
Too many schools. Even if they were solely FISD Stadiums 1 stadium wouldn't be enough to schedule everyone on the days they have to schedule them.
FC Stadium is already in use as part of the rotation. We have all these High Schools trying to use TWO fields for Varsity games. Logistically, the district does need a 3rd stadium.
 

Rebel

Diamond Member
#50
FC Stadium is already in use as part of the rotation. We have all these High Schools trying to use TWO fields for Varsity games. Logistically, the district does need a 3rd stadium.
Sorry, you're correct, we have Memorial Stadium as well so we'd be going from 2-3.

That doesn't count 2 additional High Schools Coming online in 2016 and 2017, land owned for #11, and the liklihood of a 12th when Brinkmann's Main Ranch develops at some unknown time in the future.
 

Mom+4

Silver Member
#51
Sorry, you're correct, we have Memorial Stadium as well so we'd be going from 2-3.

That doesn't count 2 additional High Schools Coming online in 2016 and 2017, land owned for #11, and the liklihood of a 12th when Brinkmann's Main Ranch develops at some unknown time in the future.
Yes...I know. we'd be having games starting at 11am if we don't get another stadium soon.
 

Piiilot

Platinum Member
#53
Not all of the aforementioned events will be $4500. I'm betting that many will be $2500 (less than 1500 expected attendance - ie. JV games)

The pin ceremony is a big deal to the administration. This is an event where staff are honored by their "year pins" (5 year, 10 year, etc...awards, etc.)

The other stadiums sit empty the rest of the year as well. And if you'll read how I described the funding of this... it doesn't come out of the property taxes you and I pay every year.

And...let's not forget how the M&A is handled by the Cowboys. This is a good deal for the district.

Graduation, etc. will be held here instead of Dr. Pepper (or maybe both???)
Mom, I know you are trying really, really, really hard to spin this into a good thing for the kids, but stop. Let me help you. There will be no JV games. Those games are played earlier in the week. If you would like to bet, I would more than happy to take your money. Every event will be 4500 bucks plus and there will not be more than 20-25 of them. the other facilities do not sit empty. They are used for soccer, they are used for band, they are used for little league sports, Memorial is used for track and field competition, band practices and competitions.
It does not come out of property tax that you and I pay, is a ridiculous argument, it comes from tax revenue.
I believe we would be better off with a 20 million dollar STADIUM that could be used year round for soccer and track and band, and 15 million dollars worth of academic upgrades to our libraries, technology, and teachers salaries. But hey that's just me - what do I know.........
I started this thread because they were trying to mask the fact that we were building a stadium.
 

Piiilot

Platinum Member
#54
Sorry, you're correct, we have Memorial Stadium as well so we'd be going from 2-3.

That doesn't count 2 additional High Schools Coming online in 2016 and 2017, land owned for #11, and the liklihood of a 12th when Brinkmann's Main Ranch develops at some unknown time in the future.
Excellent point, instead of building 1 stadium for 35 million dollars, we could have built 2 for 40 million and used them both year round !
 

pearceg

Diamond Member
#55
We spend way too much money on HS Football in this area. The other sports get shafted because Football is placed on a pedestal.
High school gyms are good enough for FISD's high school basketball teams and volleyball teams and (I guess) wrestling teams. High school auditoriums are good enough for FISD band concerts and choir concerts and theater performances. What's so special about high school football that justifies the "need" for domed and professional level stadia, "mixed-use" public-private "partnership" venues, etc?
 

Piiilot

Platinum Member
#56
High school gyms are good enough for FISD's high school basketball teams and volleyball teams and (I guess) wrestling teams. High school auditoriums are good enough for FISD band concerts and choir concerts and theater performances. What's so special about high school football that justifies the "need" for domed and professional level stadia, "mixed-use" public-private "partnership" venues, etc?
This has nothing to do with need. This has to do excess. We are stupid rich, and we are spending the money. The city leaders wanted Jerry here and pulled out all of the stops to get him here. People are trying really hard to justify this deal, but at the end of the day, you can't justify it. It is excessive. There are a lot of other ways this money could have been used. We absolutely need football stadiums, we are getting 2 for 100 million dollars. We have no room to criticize anyone in Allen, as a matter of fact we have no room to criticize anyone but ourselves. Most stick their head in the sand and ignore what the elected officials do, no one votes, we just give them an open checkbook and turn them loose. If every school had brand new text books, if every library was busting at the seams, if every student had access to the latest technology, if we had lower student teacher ratio's, if we had the highest paid teachers, if we had more diverse curriculums, THEN I would be ok pissing away an extra 15 million on something this exorbitant - but we don't - we did and all I want to be clear is it is a stadium. Not multi- use- event center..........
 
#57
This has nothing to do with need. This has to do excess. We are stupid rich, and we are spending the money. The city leaders wanted Jerry here and pulled out all of the stops to get him here. People are trying really hard to justify this deal, but at the end of the day, you can't justify it. It is excessive. There are a lot of other ways this money could have been used. We absolutely need football stadiums, we are getting 2 for 100 million dollars. We have no room to criticize anyone in Allen, as a matter of fact we have no room to criticize anyone but ourselves. Most stick their head in the sand and ignore what the elected officials do, no one votes, we just give them an open checkbook and turn them loose. If every school had brand new text books, if every library was busting at the seams, if every student had access to the latest technology, if we had lower student teacher ratio's, if we had the highest paid teachers, if we had more diverse curriculums, THEN I would be ok pissing away an extra 15 million on something this exorbitant - but we don't - we did and all I want to be clear is it is a stadium. Not multi- use- event center..........
This post shows you don't understand the Texas School finance system. When you do, then talk about highest paid teachers. This deal enables MORE money to go into the Operating budget, which is what pays for Student Teacher rate, teacher pay, etc..

Over 30 years this is a great deal for Frisco. Controlling costs, and Operating expenses, without raising taxes. it will put 750k-1.5M a year BACK into the operating budget where we pay teachers. By the way, yearly maintenance on stadiums or multi use venues is part of the operating budget and impacts how many teachers get paid. You can argue that a standalone stadium that seats 6k people is less than the 30 spent here, but the only economic value is as a stadium. If you don't believe this is a multi use venue, then your not very smart. For once, convocation, and graduations are set for this center already. oh.. yeah. that's multi use. Soccer. Set for the stadium. Band competitions, set for the stadium. Multi use.. Semantics my FOL friend..

Ok. now let's look at the first JOINT VENTURE. Toyota stadium.. Multi use, public private funding. You haven't ragged on that venture, which has been extremely successful. If anything, the Star is structured even better as it's a TRIZ.

I love that Frisco has done a great job of Public Private partnerships to create a world class city, that continues to thrive.
 

Mom+4

Silver Member
#58
This has nothing to do with need. This has to do excess. We are stupid rich, and we are spending the money. The city leaders wanted Jerry here and pulled out all of the stops to get him here. People are trying really hard to justify this deal, but at the end of the day, you can't justify it. It is excessive. There are a lot of other ways this money could have been used. We absolutely need football stadiums, we are getting 2 for 100 million dollars. We have no room to criticize anyone in Allen, as a matter of fact we have no room to criticize anyone but ourselves. Most stick their head in the sand and ignore what the elected officials do, no one votes, we just give them an open checkbook and turn them loose. If every school had brand new text books, if every library was busting at the seams, if every student had access to the latest technology, if we had lower student teacher ratio's, if we had the highest paid teachers, if we had more diverse curriculums, THEN I would be ok pissing away an extra 15 million on something this exorbitant - but we don't - we did and all I want to be clear is it is a stadium. Not multi- use- event center..........
A) FISD didn't spend 100M.
B) FISD would have had to ask for, and sell bonds to to pay for said stadium - which would be paid for out of our property taxes
C) FISD doesn't have the imaginary $$$ for all of the other things, if we went with B), FISD would have less
D) The new stadium/multi-use center deal DOESN'T impact our everyday property taxes or the general fund. We don't $$$ coming out of the general fund for the building of stadium, debt service or M&A. It is all paid back with the property taxes (and a portion of the parking fees) from this entire development (office buildings, hotels, restaurants, retail).

The district is using a financing tool to get a very nice stadium (one that we could not otherwise afford) and not having to spend a dime of "real" money.

One could argue (as has been done to death :deadhorse:) that this tract may have eventually been built and property taxes may have eventually flowed into the coffers....but when?

I believe this deal has been a catalyst for many other deals along the Tollway....driving more economic growth in to the area (that isn't attached to TIRZ).


And the stadiums DO SIT empty much of the year. No, they are not entirely devoted to football, but they are not in use every day of the year either. Yet the district has to maintain them year round.

And bizguy - it's football. Football rules in Texas (and many other states...not just a Texas thing). That is another argument entirely.
 

Piiilot

Platinum Member
#59
This post shows you don't understand the Texas School finance system. When you do, then talk about highest paid teachers. This deal enables MORE money to go into the Operating budget, which is what pays for Student Teacher rate, teacher pay, etc..

Over 30 years this is a great deal for Frisco. Controlling costs, and Operating expenses, without raising taxes. it will put 750k-1.5M a year BACK into the operating budget where we pay teachers. By the way, yearly maintenance on stadiums or multi use venues is part of the operating budget and impacts how many teachers get paid. You can argue that a standalone stadium that seats 6k people is less than the 30 spent here, but the only economic value is as a stadium. If you don't believe this is a multi use venue, then your not very smart. For once, convocation, and graduations are set for this center already. oh.. yeah. that's multi use. Soccer. Set for the stadium. Band competitions, set for the stadium. Multi use.. Semantics my FOL friend..

Ok. now let's look at the first JOINT VENTURE. Toyota stadium.. Multi use, public private funding. You haven't ragged on that venture, which has been extremely successful. If anything, the Star is structured even better as it's a TRIZ.

I love that Frisco has done a great job of Public Private partnerships to create a world class city, that continues to thrive.
You don't have a clue about what I understand or don't understand. This thread is about whether it is really a stadium, and has migrated into peeling the layers back on the deal that got us here.

- - - Updated - - -

A) FISD didn't spend 100M.
B) FISD would have had to ask for, and sell bonds to to pay for said stadium - which would be paid for out of our property taxes
C) FISD doesn't have the imaginary $$$ for all of the other things, if we went with B), FISD would have less
D) The new stadium/multi-use center deal DOESN'T impact our everyday property taxes or the general fund. We don't $$$ coming out of the general fund for the building of stadium, debt service or M&A. It is all paid back with the property taxes (and a portion of the parking fees) from this entire development (office buildings, hotels, restaurants, retail).

The district is using a financing tool to get a very nice stadium (one that we could not otherwise afford) and not having to spend a dime of "real" money.

One could argue (as has been done to death :deadhorse:) that this tract may have eventually been built and property taxes may have eventually flowed into the coffers....but when?

I believe this deal has been a catalyst for many other deals along the Tollway....driving more economic growth in to the area (that isn't attached to TIRZ).


And the stadiums DO SIT empty much of the year. No, they are not entirely devoted to football, but they are not in use every day of the year either. Yet the district has to maintain them year round.

And bizguy - it's football. Football rules in Texas (and many other states...not just a Texas thing). That is another argument entirely.
If I can show that we have in fact spent 100 million dollars would that change your opinion ?
 

bizguy

Diamond Member
#60
This post shows you don't understand the Texas School finance system. When you do, then talk about highest paid teachers. This deal enables MORE money to go into the Operating budget, which is what pays for Student Teacher rate, teacher pay, etc..

Over 30 years this is a great deal for Frisco. Controlling costs, and Operating expenses, without raising taxes. it will put 750k-1.5M a year BACK into the operating budget where we pay teachers. By the way, yearly maintenance on stadiums or multi use venues is part of the operating budget and impacts how many teachers get paid. You can argue that a standalone stadium that seats 6k people is less than the 30 spent here, but the only economic value is as a stadium. If you don't believe this is a multi use venue, then your not very smart. For once, convocation, and graduations are set for this center already. oh.. yeah. that's multi use. Soccer. Set for the stadium. Band competitions, set for the stadium. Multi use.. Semantics my FOL friend..

Ok. now let's look at the first JOINT VENTURE. Toyota stadium.. Multi use, public private funding. You haven't ragged on that venture, which has been extremely successful. If anything, the Star is structured even better as it's a TRIZ.

I love that Frisco has done a great job of Public Private partnerships to create a world class city, that continues to thrive.
It's not about how the school finance system works, it's whether that level of expenditure is okay to start with. You have missed the most fundamental question...

And "it's Texas and it's football" is not acceptable answer... :)

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