Here ya go atheists....chew on this one for a while...

Your Jesus and Muhammed comparisons only show how little you've looked into the two.

I always find this funny. The atheist who thinks it hilarious that a creator of matter and energy...could have an animal talk. So, though it actually starts out with "God created heaven and earth..." you skip right past that (to your credit you know there's not a better answer though it begs the question) and can't even keep from laughing.

Biblically, no. I'll confess to not having spent much time on this topic (which shouldn't surprise). But I've only found the bible to support men and women in marriage - not children. And a good point regarding the legal age. As you'll find in Romans 13, that unless a law conflicts with one of God's commands...follow the law.

Jesus was not the son of god, but simply a divine messenger that arrived before the last divine messenger, muhammed. He also wasn't crucified, but ascended directly into heaven. It's all plainly lad out in the Koran.

And yes, I do find the talking animal part rather funny. But hey, if someone will believe that, then there's probably very little he/she won't believe. And yes, I do rather quickly dismiss claims that not only cannot be remotely substantiated, but have counter-arguments that can be. But even if there weren't valid counter-arguments, assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Most agree that Mary was probably 12-14 yrs old when she was married off to Joseph, as would have been typical at the time, and that she was pregnant when they were married and never slept with joseph prior. Thus the whole immaculate conception thing. Based on that example, the bible supports tweens marrying and having kids. God herself did it, so it can't be wrong.
 
jesus was not the son of god, but simply a divine messenger that arrived before the last divine messenger, muhammed. He also wasn't crucified, but ascended directly into heaven. It's all plainly lad out in the koran. And yes, i do find the talking animal part rather funny. But hey, if someone will believe that, then there's probably very little he/she won't believe. And yes, i do rather quickly dismiss claims that not only cannot be remotely substantiated, but have counter-arguments that can be. But even if there weren't valid counter-arguments, assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Most agree that mary was probably 12-14 yrs old when she was married off to joseph, as would have been typical at the time, and that she was pregnant when they were married and never slept with joseph prior. Thus the whole immaculate conception thing. Based on that example, the bible supports tweens marrying and having kids. god herself did it, so it can't be wrong.
^ ri-fricking-diculous ^
 
Do you believe that? If not, what is your theory?
Of course I don't believe that. We simply don't know yet. But "God" isn't the answer. It's like walking outside and your tree is laying in the front yard. You don't know what did it or how it happened yet, but "God did it" isn't the answer. "God" used to make the sun rise and set until we understood astronomy better. Now, no one says that nor believes that past the 3rd grade. That's the God of the Gaps argument that's constantly on the retreat.

When it comes to religion, the one you align with is largely dependent upon where in the world you were born (and when in history), and what your parents believed. For example, if you were born in India or that region of the world, you'd most likely be a Hindu and believe something very different than what you've been taught in Sunday school, and you'd defend it just as energetically as Lucas defends his version.

If you were born today in China and that region of the world or some countries in Africa, you'd most likely be Buddhist and believe yet again a very different origin story. And so forth, without even diving into going backwards in time and talking about Greek, Norse, Egyptian, etc beliefs re: their own versions of the origin story. Religion as always been used to fill the gaps in knowledge people had.

Ex orgin story (Hindu): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cycle_of_the_universe
 
Last edited:

mridgley

Triple Platinum
Of course I don't believe that. We simply don't know yet. But "God" isn't the answer. It's like walking outside and your tree is laying in the front yard. You don't know what did it or how it happened yet, but "God did it" isn't the answer. "God" used to make the sun rise and set until we understood astronomy better. Now, no one says that nor believes that past the 3rd grade. That's the God of the Gaps argument that's constantly on the retreat.

When it comes to religion, the one you align with is largely dependent upon where in the world you were born (and when in history), and what your parents believed. For example, if you were born in India or that region of the world, you'd most likely be a Hindu and believe something very different than what you've been taught in Sunday school, and you'd defend it just as energetically as Lucas defends his version.

If you were born today in China and that region of the world or some countries in Africa, you'd most likely be Buddhist and believe yet again a very different origin story. And so forth, without even diving into going backwards in time and talking about Greek, Norse, Egyptian, etc beliefs re: their own versions of the origin story. Religion as always been used to fill the gaps in knowledge people had.

Ex orgin story (Hindu): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cycle_of_the_universe
So you rest your belief in "science" and a theory that comes up short....? Blasphemy! It cannot be!!! Isn't your believe in the creation of the universe also faith? (Faith: strong belief in someone or something). Of course the sun is understood through astronomy. Astronomy is just a series of better and better approximations and documented celestial matter. Astronomy continues to change with the advent of technology. Developing new theories as older ones are disqualified. I haven't seen astronomy give us the answers to creation though...

You believe that life began from a singularity right?... either a singular matter that transformed into the universe or a deity that brought the universe into existence.

Religion is criticized because one must have faith and it is considered mythical. Why is divinity considered mythical but the belief in scientific theory isn't?

I'm not sure why you say that certain people are born into religion. There are plenty of Christians having their heads carved off in the ME for being Christian. Aren't they supposed to be Muslim based on your sentiment?

Don't even get me started on all of the holes in the various evolution theories.

Many aspects of the bible have been proven. Many parts of the bible continue to be corroborated with archaeological findings.
 

perseco

Double Platinum
So you rest your belief in "science" and a theory that comes up short....? Blasphemy! It cannot be!!! Isn't your believe in the creation of the universe also faith? (Faith: strong belief in someone or something). Of course the sun is understood through astronomy. Astronomy is just a series of better and better approximations and documented celestial matter. Astronomy continues to change with the advent of technology. Developing new theories as older ones are disqualified. I haven't seen astronomy give us the answers to creation though...
Science has already explained far more than religion ever reasonably could, and it will continue to do so.

You believe that life began from a singularity right?... either a singular matter that transformed into the universe or a deity that brought the universe into existence.
Both of these are valid hypotheses. Neither have enough reliable evidence to suggest any degree of certainty, though one does possess more supporting evidence than the other.

Religion is criticized because one must have faith and it is considered mythical. Why is divinity considered mythical but the belief in scientific theory isn't?
Because science isn't based on a story... it's based on observation and testing.

I'm not sure why you say that certain people are born into religion. There are plenty of Christians having their heads carved off in the ME for being Christian. Aren't they supposed to be Muslim based on your sentiment?
When he says people are "born into religion", he is making a statement that the person is heavily influenced by their parents' religion(s). If both of your parents are Christian when you are born, you have a high probability of adopting those beliefs. Same with Muslims, Hindus, etc... and it's mostly because they indoctrinate children as early as possible in order to "save" them.

Don't even get me started on all of the holes in the various evolution theories.
Good... one less thing for which we would issue a rebuttal.

Many aspects of the bible have been proven. Many parts of the bible continue to be corroborated with archaeological findings.
Feel free to point them out... there are just as many to counter such claims. Not to mention many of these "findings" are a result of observational bias.
 
Science has already explained far more than religion ever reasonably could, and it will continue to do so.
Strike one: These are not mutually exclusive. God gave us science and truth...use 'em.

Both of these are valid hypotheses. Neither have enough reliable evidence to suggest any degree of certainty, though one does possess more supporting evidence than the other.
I disagree. Or you can just show your supporting evidence about what was before the big bang or singularity or before that... One may require more faith than the other.
Some of my evidence - this world works way too well and things are in such perfect balance to maintain life, etc. You have to be looking for a way to run from a Creator to think it's just an accident. Strike two?

Because science isn't based on a story... it's based on observation and testing.
Show me something in the Bible that has been proven to be wrong using observation and testing. And I'm sure you and the Skeet will want to claim that since God made some animals talk a long time ago...you'll want to twist the words into saying it must still happen today (or any other one time event). Should this be strike three since we know it's coming (context can be scary)?

When he says people are "born into religion", he is making a statement that the person is heavily influenced by their parents' religion(s). If both of your parents are Christian when you are born, you have a high probability of adopting those beliefs. Same with Muslims, Hindus, etc... and it's mostly because they indoctrinate children as early as possible in order to "save" them.
Now it sounds like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Let me explain or maybe ask a question to be sure (and I think you posted something a while back about religion percentages in the US). Do you think more people are losing their religion or is it just easier for people to be open about it now (because of the current culture)? For those who know their Bibles...the Parable of the sower comes to mind. Personally, I think plenty of people will fake whatever they think will help them get by. But that doesn't mean there isn't and hasn't always been a faction that are truly saved (something we'll never know here on earth). So, it's my belief that you agree with my thought on those percentages changing. If it were more acceptable 40 years ago to be atheist, more people would have checked that box. But more than all that...even if you were correct. All you're saying is that you don't like God's structure for spreading the gospel. I'm not sure that should surprise.

Good... one less thing for which we would issue a rebuttal.
Thank you. There's too much nonsense out there as it is. I don't care to read more about how you want to push your faith on everyone (sound familiar - we all believe something). Good eye - Ball one

Feel free to point them out... there are just as many to counter such claims. Not to mention many of these "findings" are a result of observational bias.
I haven't seen such a counter from my previous mentions of William_Mitchell_Ramsay
I agree, this guy had a pretty strong bias, but is it a problem if it doesn't fit your narrative?
 

perseco

Double Platinum
Strike one: These are not mutually exclusive. God gave us science and truth...use 'em.
Pure ignorance on display here. Perhaps you should brush up on your history some more, particularly with the origins of science and mathematics in ancient civilizations.

I disagree. Or you can just show your supporting evidence about what was before the big bang or singularity or before that... One may require more faith than the other.
I'm not going to tell you how to do a simple Google search to find the evidence that supports the big bang theory. You can find it well enough on your own.

Some of my evidence - this world works way too well and things are in such perfect balance to maintain life, etc. You have to be looking for a way to run from a Creator to think it's just an accident. Strike two?
To make such a statement, you are intentionally ignoring all the things that don't work well in order to satisfy your narrative. This is your observation bias at play here.

Show me something in the Bible that has been proven to be wrong using observation and testing. And I'm sure you and the Skeet will want to claim that since God made some animals talk a long time ago...you'll want to twist the words into saying it must still happen today (or any other one time event). Should this be strike three since we know it's coming (context can be scary)?
Earth created in 7 days? Proven wrong.
Global flood? Proven wrong.
Noah's Ark? Proven wrong.
Human population started with 2 people living in the same time period? Proven wrong.
Plagues caused by God? Proven wrong.

Do I really need to keep listing them? Those are just the most obvious ones.

Now it sounds like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Let me explain or maybe ask a question to be sure (and I think you posted something a while back about religion percentages in the US). Do you think more people are losing their religion or is it just easier for people to be open about it now (because of the current culture)? For those who know their Bibles...the Parable of the sower comes to mind. Personally, I think plenty of people will fake whatever they think will help them get by. But that doesn't mean there isn't and hasn't always been a faction that are truly saved (something we'll never know here on earth). So, it's my belief that you agree with my thought on those percentages changing. If it were more acceptable 40 years ago to be atheist, more people would have checked that box. But more than all that...even if you were correct. All you're saying is that you don't like God's structure for spreading the gospel. I'm not sure that should surprise.
People are losing their religion because populations are becoming more and more literate as education becomes widely available. They no longer rely on clerics and their parents to do their thinking for them. The Internet has only accelerated this process as access to information has become more widely available than ever before. Not only that, but because education and information are more widespread, it has become part of the culture, making it easier for people to discuss it publicly.

Thank you. There's too much nonsense out there as it is. I don't care to read more about how you want to push your faith on everyone (sound familiar - we all believe something). Good eye - Ball one
If observation is nonsense, then you are truly blind.

I haven't seen such a counter from my previous mentions of William_Mitchell_Ramsay
I agree, this guy had a pretty strong bias, but is it a problem if it doesn't fit your narrative?
If you haven't seen it, you haven't been looking. If you only look to prove your statements, you are doing yourself a great disservice from an academic standpoint, which is exactly what Ramsay did. The scientific method does not set out to try to prove anything... it takes the hypotheses as a statement that needs to be disproven and attempts to do so through experimentation.
 
Also, an interesting question:

What's it like, as a christian and true believer, getting up every day and hoping today is the day you and the ones you love die?

This is the natural result of true belief.
 

lucas mccain

Triple Platinum
Earth created in 7 days? Proven wrong.
Global flood? Proven wrong.
Noah's Ark? Proven wrong.
Human population started with 2 people living in the same time period? Proven wrong.
Plagues caused by God? Proven wrong.

Do I really need to keep listing them? Those are just the most obvious ones.
Show me the proof (not to be mistaken with theoretical evidence).
 
Pure ignorance on display here. Perhaps you should brush up on your history some more, particularly with the origins of science and mathematics in ancient civilizations.
Okay, hmmm. My religion (more accurately - faith) says God created everything including science. Show me your timeline that messes that up. Or were you calling out your own ignorance, and just letting me know ahead of time? If so, thank you.
I'm going to use observation and science to help me understand same as you should. You just have a different faith in things not observable/repeatable. Show me something the scientific theory proves today and where it contradicts the Bible today.

I'm not going to tell you how to do a simple Google search to find the evidence that supports the big bang theory. You can find it well enough on your own.
Exactly. No proof, just some observations that support your faith. Similar to my position.

To make such a statement, you are intentionally ignoring all the things that don't work well in order to satisfy your narrative. This is your observation bias at play here.
So prove me wrong. Point out how obviously flawed due to my bias.

Earth created in 7 days? Proven wrong.
Global flood? Proven wrong.
Noah's Ark? Proven wrong.
Human population started with 2 people living in the same time period? Proven wrong.
Plagues caused by God? Proven wrong.

Do I really need to keep listing them? Those are just the most obvious ones.
No, just show me a link or something. You can list things all day, but just saying something has been proven without support is quite weak. And no, your go to Google search doesn't help you with this one.

People are losing their religion because populations are becoming more and more literate as education becomes widely available. They no longer rely on clerics and their parents to do their thinking for them. The Internet has only accelerated this process as access to information has become more widely available than ever before. Not only that, but because education and information are more widespread, it has become part of the culture, making it easier for people to discuss it publicly.
So someone with a high IQ = atheist / low IQ = theist? Clearly not true.
And I guess that answers my question. In the same way, I'm guessing you think the suppressed Muslim women in Iran really are happy about it and think it's great. But in a few years when they start reading...then they'll have a different opinion. It's not that the culture makes them hide their true thoughts/feelings. Okaaay.

If observation is nonsense, then you are truly blind.
I clearly clarified that I was talking about your faith - like in things you can't observe and repeat. Making Skeet proud.

If you haven't seen it, you haven't been looking. If you only look to prove your statements, you are doing yourself a great disservice from an academic standpoint, which is exactly what Ramsay did. The scientific method does not set out to try to prove anything... it takes the hypotheses as a statement that needs to be disproven and attempts to do so through experimentation.
I give you someone who found proof in the real world (archeology) that was previously only found in the Bible. And with your preconceived notions and faith, you are willing to dismiss what he found in observable evidence. Your faith is both strong and blind. It's starting to add up. You do the very thing that you call "a great disservice from an academic standpoint."
 

lucas mccain

Triple Platinum
Also, an interesting question:

What's it like, as a christian and true believer, getting up every day and hoping today is the day you and the ones you love die?

This is the natural result of true belief.
Strawman.

But to confuse you even more.
Death is not final for humans (remember the soul explanation I gave you?). Our physical bodies will die, but our souls will live forever... even yours.

Where it lives is between you and Him.

Knowing this, Christians anticipate eternity with God in His kingdom, but also have no desire to live through watching love ones die. I would like nothing more than my Lord to take us to His kingdom today, however I also understand His ways and timing are beyond my understanding. I trust it is for the best. Maybe even extending time specifically for you and other non-believers to submit to His will. Of course, that will require humility and honest desire to be at peace with our Creator.

I know you are mockingly being stupid and blasphemous on purpose, but I have to make sure you weren't asking out of sincerity.
 

perseco

Double Platinum
Okay, hmmm. My religion (more accurately - faith) says God created everything including science. Show me your timeline that messes that up. Or were you calling out your own ignorance, and just letting me know ahead of time? If so, thank you.
Math and astronomy pre-date the Bible, as does Mayan agriculture. Start there. You've lived your life absorbing what other people tell you... it's time for you to go explore for yourself. As long as you rely on other people to tell you what's true, you will always remain ignorant. I do not have the time to go over it in detail with you.

I'm going to use observation and science to help me understand same as you should. You just have a different faith in things not observable/repeatable. Show me something the scientific theory proves today and where it contradicts the Bible today.
Already did. [1] [2]

Exactly. No proof, just some observations that support your faith. Similar to my position.
I was pointing out your unwillingness to look for possible answers on your own time. You're just trying to waste my time because you're afraid to go looking yourself.

So prove me wrong. Point out how obviously flawed due to my bias.
You claimed that everything was magically perfect for life here, yet that's not the case. You're ignoring the mass extinctions that have taken place, cancer, disease, extreme weather, fire, other creatures that can and do kill us, celestial debris that could smash into the planet at any time... the list goes on.

Sorry, but it's not a paradise created just for us, no matter how hard you try to paint that fantasy portrait. And any explanation you come up with for a just and loving God is a direct contradiction to those existential threats we face every day.

No, just show me a link or something. You can list things all day, but just saying something has been proven without support is quite weak. And no, your go to Google search doesn't help you with this one.
I gave you starting points. If you were truly interested in finding this information, you would do so without my direction. But it's becoming abundantly clear that you're not, and you're just trying to disrespect people by wasting their time arguing with you.

So someone with a high IQ = atheist / low IQ = theist? Clearly not true.
And I guess that answers my question. In the same way, I'm guessing you think the suppressed Muslim women in Iran really are happy about it and think it's great. But in a few years when they start reading...then they'll have a different opinion. It's not that the culture makes them hide their true thoughts/feelings. Okaaay.
I never said high IQ = atheist... I only pointed out the strong correlation between education and lack of religious beliefs. That does not imply that every educated person is an atheist, it just makes it more likely than not.

I give you someone who found proof in the real world (archeology) that was previously only found in the Bible. And with your preconceived notions and faith, you are willing to dismiss what he found in observable evidence. Your faith is both strong and blind. It's starting to add up. You do the very thing that you call "a great disservice from an academic standpoint."
He didn't find proof. He found what he wanted to find. There's a big difference there, and it reduces the credibility of his claims.
 
Strawman.

But to confuse you even more.
Death is not final for humans (remember the soul explanation I gave you?). Our physical bodies will die, but our souls will live forever... even yours.

Where it lives is between you and Him.

Knowing this, Christians anticipate eternity with God in His kingdom, but also have no desire to live through watching love ones die. I would like nothing more than my Lord to take us to His kingdom today, however I also understand His ways and timing are beyond my understanding. I trust it is for the best. Maybe even extending time specifically for you and other non-believers to submit to His will. Of course, that will require humility and honest desire to be at peace with our Creator.

I know you are mockingly being stupid and blasphemous on purpose, but I have to make sure you weren't asking out of sincerity.
Right. So every day you're hoping today is the day you and those you love die. Is there another way to get there that doesn't include dying?
 

lucas mccain

Triple Platinum
Right. So every day you're hoping today is the day you and those you love die. Is there another way to get there that doesn't include dying?
Did you not read what I posted, or did you not understand it?

Death.
It's coming for you and those YOU love.

No. I'm not hoping today is the day me and those I love die. But at the same time, I sure am thankful for where I'll be when it does happen.

What say you?
 
Did you not read what I posted, or did you not understand it?

Death.
It's coming for you and those YOU love.

No. I'm not hoping today is the day me and those I love die. But at the same time, I sure am thankful for where I'll be when it does happen.

What say you?
How can you not be hopeful day in and day out? If you truly believe paradise is on the other side of the door, why aren't you hoping the door opens? It only makes sense that either you're hoping the door opens, or you do not truly believe paradise is on the other side. One of those two things has to be true.

If I thought my utopia was just around the corner, I'd be hoping and even trying to get there even as I type this.