Asking for 2,000 kids in cages...

MacFrisco

Diamond Member
you were the one who pulled the food stamp act into the discussion, which is directly related to the failed war on poverty... I mean, did you even bother to read the article? I’m guessing not, since you think you know everything lol
I never mentioned food stamps, you must be confused.

I did read the article it is an opinion piece with selected facts.

Ending poverty is not like landing on the moon as economies don't have a stated goal, they are fluid and cyclical. The whole article is nonsense and anyone with a little knowledge of our economy since 1967 could easily see that.

Still, if you're going to be poor this is the place to be poor.
 
Last edited:
Speaking of nutritional assistance, the Republicans in the House just offered up their 2019 budget. Guess what?

The proposed mandatory reduction includes $1.5 trillion from Medicaid, $537 billion from Medicare and $2.6 trillion in reductions to other programs such as welfare, nutritional assistance and other anti-poverty programs.
Same as it ever was. Blow a hole in the budget with tax cuts for the wealthy then toss all the poor people in the hole to patch it.

In 2010 the Republicans ran endless ads saying Democrats were cutting $500B from Medicare. Now they're proposing we cut $537B from Medicare.

Tell me again how Republicans care so much about caring for the poor and needy. It's such a nice fairy tale.
 
There it is. "Poor people are lazy".
You cant comprehend what is written. You read into statements and in your zeal to barf a left wing talking point you once again look very confused. Show me where I said "poor people are lazy".... You cant because it was never stated. I guess you feel good throwing out a talking point that had nothing to do with the post.
 

FCS Wes

Silver Member
Speaking of nutritional assistance, the Republicans in the House just offered up their 2019 budget. Guess what?


Same as it ever was. Blow a hole in the budget with tax cuts for the wealthy then toss all the poor people in the hole to patch it.

In 2010 the Republicans ran endless ads saying Democrats were cutting $500B from Medicare. Now they're proposing we cut $537B from Medicare.

Tell me again how Republicans care so much about caring for the poor and needy. It's such a nice fairy tale.
Welfare needs to be gutted and then restructured and the users requalified, there's far too much welfare fraud so I don't have a problem with that.
There's a welfare office behind one of the businesses that I've managed it for, every 1st and 15th it looks like a new car lot. I'm not sure that I'm feeling sorry for people who have the ability to buy new 40 50 and $60,000 SUV's while collecting a welfare check.

I don't necessarily agree with the Medicare and Medicaid Cuts but those also need to be looked at due to the massive frogs in that. Better management of both systems is needed so I probably say cut them all and then requalified everyone and verify that the people on it actually deserved it and needed it and then provide a means at which to be removed from the welfare system, IE some kind of job program to verify the people actively looking for a job and then once they retain one or off welfare.

I'm not for supporting people who don't want to work and while you may frame this as I hate poor people or that poor people are lazy, to deny that there is a significant amount of fraud is a foolish.
 
You cant comprehend what is written. You read into statements and in your zeal to barf a left wing talking point you once again look very confused. Show me where I said "poor people are lazy".... You cant because it was never stated. I guess you feel good throwing out a talking point that had nothing to do with the post.
Saying the safety net is a hammock implies that the poor people who at a difficult point in their lives depend on it are too lazy to better their situation and would instead prefer to mooch. You don't need to explicitly state something for it to be obvious what you're saying.
 

FCS Wes

Silver Member
There are no members of Congress or major party leaders who suggest or are working towards open borders. You're simply making things up and daring people to defend a policy that doesn't exist.

Come out of Fantasyland and join us in the real world.

It's funny how FCS Wes is more than happy to come and chide me when he thinks I'm baselessly attributing a view to a broad group, yet he's silent on these continuous suggestions that all Democrats want open borders.

He might be an independent but his lean is pretty obvious.
First of all, I don't camp out on this forum. I got S do. Secondly I don't believe all Democrats are for open borders, quite a few aren't. This is a situation where the vocal minority is deem to speak for everyone and that's not the case on either side.

I believe I've made my position quite clear when it comes to someone viewing one side of the other totally for or totally against something because of the voices of a few vocal or loud people. I don't think I need to come in here and defend every damn position.

ETA, while I do not believe that the entire Democratic party Or democrats in general are for open borders it certainly does appear that a significant number of people are, my question to you is what's your position on it why do you think there does not need to be border enforcement? Seems quite a few on here or arguing that there does not need to be borders.

And lastly, it's funny that you think you know my leanings. Most people here who have read and have paid attention to my posts know fairly well where I sit and that is not with either party. My view on the situation is simply is this see a problem figure out the best way to fix the problem. Party affiliation means nothing to me.
 
Last edited:
Welfare needs to be gutted and then restructured and the users requalified, there's far too much welfare fraud so I don't have a problem with that.
There's a welfare office behind one of the businesses that I've managed it for, every 1st and 15th it looks like a new car lot. I'm not sure that I'm feeling sorry for people who have the ability to buy new 40 50 and $60,000 SUV's while collecting a welfare check.

I don't necessarily agree with the Medicare and Medicaid Cuts but those also need to be looked at due to the massive frogs in that. Better management of both systems is needed so I probably say cut them all and then requalified everyone and verify that the people on it actually deserved it and needed it and then provide a means at which to be removed from the welfare system, IE some kind of job program to verify the people actively looking for a job and then once they retain one or off welfare.

I'm not for supporting people who don't want to work and while you may frame this as I hate poor people or that poor people are lazy, to deny that there is a significant amount of fraud is a foolish.
I would agree with this if the fraud truly was significant but most articles seem to have it in single digits. And again I feel like once again we're focusing on the poor as if they are the ones who have power in our country and are responsible for our idiotic economic policies over the past few decades.
 

FCS Wes

Silver Member
I would agree with this if the fraud truly was significant but most articles seem to have it in single digits. And again I feel like once again we're focusing on the poor as if they are the ones who have power in our country and are responsible for our idiotic economic policies over the past few decades.
No way in hell do I believe welfare fraud and Medicare fraud are in the single digits.
I don't believe anyone is focusing on the poor or at least I am not I am focusing on the amount of money spent on the social services and which people make no attempt to get themselves off of specifically welfare.
 
You cant comprehend what is written. You read into statements and in your zeal to barf a left wing talking point you once again look very confused. Show me where I said "poor people are lazy".... You cant because it was never stated. I guess you feel good throwing out a talking point that had nothing to do with the post.
"The safety net is a hammock" seems pretty clear cut to me.
 

eyeamdaman1

Platinum Member
"The safety net is a hammock" seems pretty clear cut to me.
We all knew what he meant, no need for clarification. I do like the way he chided you but didn't offer up what he actually meant by the statement.

As for the gutting of Welfare and Medicare, sure there's fraud but there's fraud in ALL of government, why focus on the poor?

Show me where managing Welfare and Medicare fraud will have a tangible impact on my paycheck. Just show me and I'll be more than happy to jump on that bandwagon. My taxes will still rise because it will reallocated to support other parts of the government that has fraud too.
 
First of all, I don't camp out on this forum. I got S do.
Yet I don't see you in here chiding Republicans for saying Democrats are for open borders. In fact, in your edit you yourself are proclaiming that a significant number of people on the left are advocating for open borders.

They aren't. That's simply false on its face.

Seems quite a few on here or arguing that there does not need to be borders.
Literally no one here has said that we should just throw the doors open, stop checking passports, and stop enforcing all border and immigration laws. I've only rarely seen that sentiment expressed and even then it's from people who are essentially far left anarchists.

I've made multiple suggestions in this thread on border policy. A sum total of none of them involve dropping to zero enforcement.

You are explicitly accepting the false framing from the Republican side of the aisle by perpetuating this myth. "Open borders" is just a buzz word designed to frame this as a black and white issue when in reality basically all of the actual policy space exists in the gray between.

And lastly, it's funny that you think you know my leanings. ... Party affiliation means nothing to me.
It's not about party. Your positions lean to the conservative side of the aisle on this and other topics. Perhaps you lean left on some as well but it's pretty obvious where the balance is. Independents tend to vote their lean. It doesn't make them die hard partisans, it's just how it is.
 
Last edited:

MacFrisco

Diamond Member
Speaking of nutritional assistance, the Republicans in the House just offered up their 2019 budget. Guess what?


Same as it ever was. Blow a hole in the budget with tax cuts for the wealthy then toss all the poor people in the hole to patch it.

In 2010 the Republicans ran endless ads saying Democrats were cutting $500B from Medicare. Now they're proposing we cut $537B from Medicare.

Tell me again how Republicans care so much about caring for the poor and needy. It's such a nice fairy tale.

People need to pay attention to this. Medicare is all that MOST AMERICANS have in old age. Medicaid is all most Americans have when personal nursing home money runs out.

No insurance company is going to save you after you reach 65+ unless you have the money to pay over $12K - $18K a year in premiums and $6000 dollars out of pocket. That's why Medicare exists.

The Democrats should be screaming with every voice that they have... all I hear is silence.
 
No way in hell do I believe welfare fraud and Medicare fraud are in the single digits.
The fact that you'd rather cling to your own anecdotes than believe the data available to you says a lot.

The fraud rate on the dollar for SNAP was a penny in 2006. Last year the rate was 1.5%.

Welfare fraud exists, but not to the extent people have convinced themselves it does. I'd rather spend time and efforts on corporate fraud that costs us far more money in the long term.
 
No way in hell do I believe welfare fraud and Medicare fraud are in the single digits.
I don't believe anyone is focusing on the poor or at least I am not I am focusing on the amount of money spent on the social services and which people make no attempt to get themselves off of specifically welfare.
I have to respectfully disagree. We have been conditioned to be divisive by our corporate owned media towards not only each other but especially towards the poor. I feel like punching down is easy to do and encouraged by the wealthy and powerful who actually are in control of government policy. It keeps us at each other's throats rather than unifying and advocating effectively for policy that would benefit the middle class and poor instead of the uber rich.

A lot of this thread has been antagonistic towards poor immigrants fleeing violence and poverty in their own country. A large percentage of our country also antagonizes people who receive government assistance. To me there seems to be a lot of animosity towards the poor because some people in the middle class feel that they are being taken advantage of (They are, just not by the impoverished) and feel irritated thinking that they can barely make ends meet yet the taxes they pay are being used to support those too lazy to work.

However, the real problem is on a more macro level. Our wars in the middle East for example will cost over $7,000,000,000,000 when all is said and done if we ever decide to leave. That could pay for every kid that wants to go to college in our country for the next 100 years. That is an insane misuse of our resources. We've also spent over $1,000,000,000,000 on the war on drugs and drug use has only increased in that time; a monumental failure in policy and a massive waste of money. We just gave the rich ANOTHER tax cut that is projected to add $1,900,000,000,000 to the deficit. The stock market is doing great as a result but for the rest of us our wages remain frustratingly stagnant.

There is no doubt fraud in our welfare system but it is not as rampant as some here believe and is not the main problem in our economy today. Would I be opposed to having more intense screening to curb fraud even more? Absolutely not. However let's not be penny wise and pound foolish. We are the richest country the world has ever seen. Doesn't it seem odd that it really doesn't feel that way for most of us and that so many are struggling and in poverty?
 
Two ways to look at it - Outright fraud is relatively small as a percentage. However, over-servicing fraud is rampant. Our pay for service model encourages ramping up the bill at every encounter. Medicare has sqweezed down the payments on so many services, providers are forced to pad the bill with unneeded service code items to boost their revenues.

Meanwhile the friction costs (overhead for bureaucracy) continue to rise. Good ol' fashioned 80/20 insurance was always the best where the patient had cost skin in the game to control costs.

But how do you move to a skin in the game model from the current free model when the Grey Army will boot you from office??
 
Two ways to look at it - Outright fraud is relatively small as a percentage. However, over-servicing fraud is rampant. Our pay for service model encourages ramping up the bill at every encounter. Medicare has sqweezed down the payments on so many services, providers are forced to pad the bill with unneeded service code items to boost their revenues.

Meanwhile the friction costs (overhead for bureaucracy) continue to rise. Good ol' fashioned 80/20 insurance was always the best where the patient had cost skin in the game to control costs.

But how do you move to a skin in the game model from the current free model when the Grey Army will boot you from office??
How much fraud do you think there is in the astronomical military budget? Why can't we get an audit? I'm not trying to deflect, I'm just reiterating my point that we're not prioritizing what we should be focusing on.

The solution to our healthcare woes is obvious: Universal Health Care. We are stubbornly the only developed country (kinda like the metric system except this actually matters) that can't figure this out because of outright corruption that keeps us from advancing on this issue. Our private system has failed and we have the highest cost by far of any nation while boasting worse results. Time to join the rest of the developed world.

This thread is getting derailed quickly though. Speaking of health care why are we forcing psychotropic drugs on some of these detained children in Houston?
 

FCS Wes

Silver Member
Yet I don't see you in here chiding Republicans for saying Democrats are for open borders. In fact, in your edit you yourself are proclaiming that a significant number of people on the left are advocating for open borders.

They aren't. That's simply false on its face.
No its not and your a liar for saying so and far as chiding Republicans, I just did. If you dont think I challenge Republicans, your are a super sized fool; I doubt anyone left here would agree with you on that.

Literally no one here has said that we should just throw the doors open, stop checking passports, and stop enforcing all border and immigration laws. I've only rarely seen that sentiment expressed and even then it's from people who are essentially far left anarchists.
Wrong, DTF made the inference 2 pages ago

I've made multiple suggestions in this thread on border policy. A sum total of none of them involve dropping to zero enforcement.

You are explicitly accepting the false framing from the Republican side of the aisle by perpetuating this myth. "Open borders" is just a buzz word designed to frame this as a black and white issue when in reality basically all of the actual policy space exists in the gray between.
Again, you're a assuming fool as you dont know what I'm accepting as I've said nothing about open borders. Seems like you missed my comments on the Border Wall thread a while back

It's not about party. Your positions lean to the conservative side of the aisle on this and other topics. Perhaps you lean left on some as well but it's pretty obvious where the balance is. Independents tend to vote their lean. It doesn't make them die hard partisans, it's just how it is.

Yes, yes it is with you, everything is about party. And again, if you think I lean one way or the other, your reading comprehension skills are extremely low
 

FCS Wes

Silver Member
The fact that you'd rather cling to your own anecdotes than believe the data available to you says a lot.

The fraud rate on the dollar for SNAP was a penny in 2006. Last year the rate was 1.5%.

Welfare fraud exists, but not to the extent people have convinced themselves it does. I'd rather spend time and efforts on corporate fraud that costs us far more money in the long term.

Ok, you got me....

Improper welfare payments, including fraud, are estimated to be 10.1% of all federal welfare payments made and totaled $71.5 billion in fiscal year 2015. This estimate is based on reports from the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) , The General Accounting Office (GAO) [ii], and other federal agencies. Seven of the Welfare Programs make the OMB list of the top thirteen federal programs estimated to be “high error programs” - programs with improper payments greater than $750 million annually. These are highlighted below by individual program
 

FCS Wes

Silver Member
I have to respectfully disagree. We have been conditioned to be divisive by our corporate owned media towards not only each other but especially towards the poor. I feel like punching down is easy to do and encouraged by the wealthy and powerful who actually are in control of government policy. It keeps us at each other's throats rather than unifying and advocating effectively for policy that would benefit the middle class and poor instead of the uber rich.

A lot of this thread has been antagonistic towards poor immigrants fleeing violence and poverty in their own country. A large percentage of our country also antagonizes people who receive government assistance. To me there seems to be a lot of animosity towards the poor because some people in the middle class feel that they are being taken advantage of (They are, just not by the impoverished) and feel irritated thinking that they can barely make ends meet yet the taxes they pay are being used to support those too lazy to work.

However, the real problem is on a more macro level. Our wars in the middle East for example will cost over $7,000,000,000,000 when all is said and done if we ever decide to leave. That could pay for every kid that wants to go to college in our country for the next 100 years. That is an insane misuse of our resources. We've also spent over $1,000,000,000,000 on the war on drugs and drug use has only increased in that time; a monumental failure in policy and a massive waste of money. We just gave the rich ANOTHER tax cut that is projected to add $1,900,000,000,000 to the deficit. The stock market is doing great as a result but for the rest of us our wages remain frustratingly stagnant.

There is no doubt fraud in our welfare system but it is not as rampant as some here believe and is not the main problem in our economy today. Would I be opposed to having more intense screening to curb fraud even more? Absolutely not. However let's not be penny wise and pound foolish. We are the richest country the world has ever seen. Doesn't it seem odd that it really doesn't feel that way for most of us and that so many are struggling and in poverty?

Why is it that you and wedge keep framing this around the poor?
A large percentage of our country also antagonizes people who receive government assistance.
I'm antagonistic against an able bodied group of people whom choose not work and ride the Fed Govt; you notice that I said RE-QUALIFY deserving people and not eliminating it altogether.

I have a huge problem when some one shows up at the welfare office in a new Escalade or Navigator twice a month to pick up welfare checks while the IRS wants to challenge me over $115 in tax deductions.

As for the monies spent fighting wars in the ME, perhaps you can produce a comment where I've stated I was for those wars or that we should be over there spending money. Just last week I stated that we should suspend or stop all outside the US expenditures and spend that money here on Americans

Perhaps fraud is as rampant as some believe, so then we should just ignore it? 750MM is change, let it go..